Would this be legal?
Submitted by grayzeee on Wed, 2012-12-05 10:09
Hypothetical situation
As a boat owner but not a diver or potter , could I get a cray license , take 2 divers out (with their own licenses) , and get 24 crays to share?
____________________________________________________________________________
If I spent half as long fishing , as I do reading this bloody forum , I'd be twice the fisherman I am.
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
I think you know the answer to that...
...of course its not legal. In all cases, the spirit of the Fisheries rules are that you must catch whatever you are going for yourself. If you were checked later without being seen not catching them, nothing could be pinned on you.
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
grayzee id say the answer is a
grayzee
id say the answer is a yes mate ,
read this link ,
hezzy
http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/Documents/recreational_fishing/licences/rec_licence_rock_lobster.pdf
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
I can't
see anything "Illegal" with the divers catching their limit and giving you[third party] the ones they wish not to keep and going for a second dive to make up their quota.
There is a 24 per boat limit providing there is 3 licences on board, is there not?????.
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
How can that be legal
when - if your using pots, you can only pull your own and not another parties. The fact the licenced fisher is sitting on the boat and has two pots in the water, does not make it legal if someone else is pulling them, unless I'm mistaken
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
You have to "catch"
Guys, running a fine line here. You can't simply give your catch to someone else. Once you have caught 8 and given them to someone else, technically your daily catch limit is finished....plus, according to the rules, the other person must "catch" the crays. As I said, if you're not caught in the act, you'll be OK from a possession limit point of view, and morally you might sleep well, but it is not the intent of catch limits for one person to catch them all and share them around.
Spicey
Posts: 217
Date Joined: 17/01/11
Rock lobster license
A license entiles you to fish for rock lobster with a daily catch limit if 8. If that license holder gives you his catch then goes back for more the same day they are breaking the rules.
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
If you're giving your 8 crays
If you're giving your 8 crays to someone on board with a license and go back and get 8 more (and no-one exceeds limits), how is it different from say being a deckie and catching two dhuies and keeping both so the skipper and you have one each at the end of the day?
I'm not sure on the exact wording re the crays, but I guess it doesnt really go with the "spirit" of the law even if it doesnt break the "letter". My view would be that if you're actively trying to catch them and involved in catching them, then splitting the catch is fine, but catching specifically for someone else (by exceeding your bag limit if you kept all) isn't. Someones you'll team up and one will loop and one will hold the torch and grab the crays and bag them, so one person may catch all of them on a dive, but as long as you're both underwater working for it (or potting), I dont see the problem with splitting them. I.e. you're essentially splitting them before you tail them and they make your bag (i.e. hit the esky).
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
OK
then what about when your fishing up Nth with your kids, little tackas that is, and your offshore fishing catching shite loads, come to shore fillet them, oh shit over the fillet limit, here ya go sweety you put them in your catch quota.
The 8 crays per licence says it all.
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
Last year fisheries nicked
Last year fisheries nicked someone for doing much the same. The guy on top sat in the boat, the other one dived and brought up 12 crays. He argued that he was doing his bit by making sure the boat didn;t drift away, but they didn't agree.
Fozz
Posts: 224
Date Joined: 01/08/08
Possession Limit
I've spoken to fisheries about this whilst out on the water acouple of years back, whilst it isn't in the spirit of why the law is in place. Basically fisheries cannot stop you, providing you can demonstrate that you can/did partake in catching them i.e a bag of snorkelling gear sitting wet in the boat is enough for fisheries (from my understanding) to accept you took part. But if fisheries pulled up to your boat as the 2 diver are getting out of the water with 24 crays in their bag, and you've got no proof you assisted, then you're fresh out of luck. Even if the divers took a 3rd tank out you can challenge that you dived for your share, as at the end of the day its a possession limit.
Dived plenty of times where a mate has come up with 10 cray & me 2 and I can tell you, he didn't throw 4 cray back!! I did come home with 6 thou.
Fozz
sea-kem
Posts: 14883
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Yep very thin grey line.
Yep very thin grey line. I've heard of boats catching over their limit of Dhuies and giving them to another boat who didn't. I think if you were caught in the act you'd be done but back at the ramp it's all about possesion limit. I wouldn't want to be the one testing your theory Grayzee could be expensive.
Love the West!
hooty
Posts: 198
Date Joined: 25/05/10
WA fisheries site - "
WA fisheries site - " Unlicensed fishers can fish in the company of a licensed boat fisher provided they stay within the licensed fisher’s bag limit " (pertaining to boat licences)
There is no difference between a non licence holder being able to fish and give you there catch and the example above. Dont make it more complex than it already is .The only spirit involved should be the ones your knocking back when your cooking the 8 crays on the barby.
dumper
Posts: 1027
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You're quoting from the rec
You're quoting from the rec boat fishing license there. Don't think it's applicable in this circumstance
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
bit of an interesting thread
bit of an interesting thread in the responses
have a read of the publication, and regulations, it states it is a possesion limit on the boat, it states what you can keep, not what you can catch if there are 3 onboard
i would ask the question if two licenced blokes pulled their 4 pots, one guy got 12 crays, the other guy got none ?? how many of you would chuck 4 back and only keep 8 ??
just plain silly, as its the same scenario of who caught what
if you hit the ramp do you honestly think fisheries would book you for having 12 in your possesion on the boat 4 under the limit, with licence holders present ?? even if you told them they all came out of one pot ??.....seriously ?? just plain silly it is not the spirit of the law to turn you all into criminals, just to exercise common sense and sustainable fishing practices, 3 licences 3 bag limits , grayzee if you are that concernd , get wet and swim and carry the bag maybe
the door stop advice you get from fisheries will not often reflect what a court means or would uphold in my experience given what this reg states in the link and on the books
the reason you cant pull someone elses pots, is because you are not the licence holder, but you can assist them if their with you in the boat
hezzy
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squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
Well
I can tell you, when I take my mates to MY spots they catch me a feed every time.
Once again, It's possession/daily bag limits we are talking about.
Hezzi put the link up, read it and tell all of us that think it shouldn't be done not to do it.....and quote the paragraph/sentence stating the fact.
I will be satisfied then.
IT"S A BIG LOOP HOLE and this thread will see it changed
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
The point is that the guy
The point is that the guy onboard hasn't acquired his crayfish through any legal means (ie; catch it a pot or with a snare etc), so whilst he may have a license, and they may all be within the boat limit, he still shouldn't have any.
Bodie
Posts: 3758
Date Joined: 05/11/07
Till kind of exactly the
Till kind of exactly the point everyone is getting at.
"He still shouldn't have any'
I read over the rules and regulations and i cannot see anything that states specifically that whats being asked in this thread is actually against the rules.
As others pointed out, there is no real difference when 2 divers surface and one has 10 and one has 6. Does the one with 10 put 2 back....never.
Im the same with pots, i wouldnt know who's pots the crays we keep come from(IE: mine or my mates), all i know is if we have our limit we have our limit.
Do no get me wrong, im not saying what is being asked above is morally right or wrong, just looking at the legality side.
Happy for you to point it out if states in the rules that im incorrect. :)
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
If you look at the regs,
If you look at the regs, being given crays by your mates is not a legal way to come across them.
I'm lucky, my fellow divers /always/ keep up their end of the catch and we /always/ seem to have pretty much half each.
In any case, they were at least obviously occupied in the legal capture of the crays, so its a fairly fine point whether or not I got 5 and they got 1 or we got three each.
If you don;t want to answer any questions like that, take some dive gear and get it wet :P
Paully
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Not saying it's right or wrong
but agree with you Till.
grayzeee
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SquidderI've read your 3
Squidder
I've read your 3 posts on this subject and I'm still not clear what side your coming from unless you're missing quotes.
3 blokes arrive at the ramp with 3 licenses and 24 crays. There doesn't seem to be any grounds at all for questioning from anyone.
If I spent half as long fishing , as I do reading this bloody forum , I'd be twice the fisherman I am.
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
At the ramp for a license
At the ramp for a license check you would seem to be ok, but so would you too if you arrived at the ramp with a legal bag of fish from a sanctuary zone. In both cases, fisheries can't tell the legality of capture of the catch, except by non-direct means (e.g. seeing two sets of dive gear, or having a report that your boat was fishing a sanctuary zone). I'm not saying these two cases are the same from a legal or moral standpoint, just that at the ramp everything seems ok, but theres more to it.
It's probably one of those things that will come down to the officer who checked and how bad a day he's having. Some fisheries dont mind you casting for salmon (if its obvious that you're chasing them from your gear and that there's a school there) inside the trolling only zone at west end. Others... dont.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
this sounds like....
this thread is "sounding" like the discussion you have around the table with a few cmates after all present have consumed a very large amout of beer
Bodie
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Date Joined: 05/11/07
and 24 crays on the table :)
and 24 crays on the table!!
fishing fanatic
Posts: 809
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Its a hard call, as its the
Its a hard call, as its the same as going out with a mate while both fishing and one gets both the dhufish, legally you wouldnt be allowed to keep the second one? i think aslong as your trying to obatin the crayfish you should be fine, but I think just sitting on the boat wont be allowed. cause then a good diver could just take his two kids out and get 24 crays while they have a nap on the boat
West Coast
Posts: 331
Date Joined: 10/12/07
Interesting Topic
Agree with Till
If you came in with 24 crays and told the Fisheries that only 2 of you dived you would be in trouble. However from my experience, provided all the crays are legal, fisheries will just want to see 3 licences.
We always share our dive catch limit. Someone has a bad day, someone else picks up the slack. Do I volunteer that to fisheries - No. Am I comfortable with that - yes. Personally I think you must at least make an effort to catch them. Sitting in a boat probably does not constitute that.
However what's the difference between getting 2 pots and a licence for a young child. Sure they have to be in the boat, but they aint contibuting anything else. Probably no different to them sitting there while you dive!!!
Rig
Posts: 2925
Date Joined: 27/12/06
tax
Soon you will need to declare each cray with a receipt to the taxation department oops I mean fisheries dept
as long as your catch doesnt exceed the amount of licences on the boat and your gear is legal fisheries wont be bothered, who's to say the guy who isnt wet didnt pull his two pots on the way out.
does this mean an old bloke who has a young deckie pull his pots for him because he cant lift them cant keep any crays in the pot because he didnt pull them himself?
I think we may be over complicating things here
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
Still his pots though. Plus
Still his pots though. Plus he's there at the point of capture. Similar to how if a two divers are in the water, one looping, and one bagging. You could also say that its whoever removed the crays from the pot instead of pulled the pot. Plus, what if he used a cray winch?
Interesting point though. A lot of it will come down to the interpretation of the fisheries officer at the time (and a court later). Hard answers dont always exist. I doubt many officers would bust someone for having a young'un pull their pots cause their backs going.
sea-kem
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Tied ourselves up in knots
Tied ourselves up in knots Rig
Love the West!
dumper
Posts: 1027
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Though the law states 8
Though the law states 8 crays per license, I'd say you'd be very unlucky to be caught. But I know fisheries over at rotto can be over zealous at times and wouldn't hesitate busting you like that
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Rig is right
to me this is all pretty much bollocks.
If you go and ask DOF this question they will like all Gov depats just say no to any curly question.
Just do it, keep your mouth closed and enjoy a feed.
The example given above hits it on the head-is the disabled pensioner/vet not allowed to take his grandson along to help?
How screwed up is that?
We share out ours when diving if someone doesnt make the cut-they dont go back til we have our bag and we dont count whose or what.
And I sleep at night quite well thank you very much.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Willlo
Posts: 1490
Date Joined: 07/10/11
If its your boat and you
If its your boat and you drove it to the spot and your mates caught 3 x quota, how can they say you didnt participate in the catching.If you didnt drive the boat then no one would catch anything. Agree with Rob H.
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jdavies_99
Posts: 114
Date Joined: 24/07/11
Interesting
Legally or not I think we are overlooking the fact that the guy in the boat actually has a pretty darn supportive role in catching the crays. I think if the rules don't allow him a fair catch limit than it is pretty damn unfair.
Manning a boat while someone dives to me justifies a catch limit as it is a pretty darn boring job that contributes to the safety of the dive and enables the guys to make their catch. No different to helping a guy lift his pot onto the boat.
A deckie to look after the boat and keep an eye out while you are under is more supportive than a cray loop will ever be.
Like I said, possibly not legal but damned if I would tell a guy who was offering to stay above while we were below that he couldn't get a legal catch himself.
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scottscurious
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fisheries do watch. even from
fisheries do watch. even from shore. i have read somewhere you must catch your own cray. hence why each person has to pull there own pots on the boat.
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
If Fisheries can sell my 5
If Fisheries can sell my 5 year old a cray licence and take the money, then they ought to be smart enough to realise he isnt going to drive the boat and pull a pot or dive it himself.
He is a WA citizen like most here and is entitled to a share of the catch.
As regards the old boys etc having help to pull pots etc-while Im pretty sure Gov are exempt from many descrimination clauses, itd be severly against the spirit of such legislation/policies to tell someone who isnt 100% healthy etc that they are not entitled to a catch share cos they are too decrepit
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Swompa
Posts: 3807
Date Joined: 14/10/12
100% agree. 3 licenses allow
100% agree. 3 licenses allow 3 x the bag limit on the boat.
My wife used to have a licence. She dived with me (never caught a Cray), had pots (never pulled them) and further more didn’t even eat them, but we always took into account her Quota.
Fisheries have no problem taking the money, so I have no problem with her having a quota even though she never physically caught an Cray
dumper
Posts: 1027
Date Joined: 03/04/08
What about the guy that
What about the guy that drives all his kids, cousins, nephews, god parents and uncles in the minivan down to north beach to catch abalone? Is he entitled to sit on the beach while everyone gets his limit for him? Probably not. It's why fisheries introduced that rule a while ago. To stop one or two people catching 8 people's limits regardless of them holding a licence
bellony
Posts: 94
Date Joined: 27/01/10
Yep, simliar to ab licence
Seen plenty of families busted by fisheries for having 4 licences but only 2 or 3 actively collecting abalone. Granny cant sit on the beach and use her bag limit as well. After many attempts to find this fact simply explained in the rules I still cant see it.
As stated many times above getting fined for it depends on if fisheries are watching or not, but still illegal.
Guess the cray issue would be the same
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
On the abalone booklet (
On the abalone booklet ( http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/Documents/recreational_fishing/licences/rec_licence_abalone.pdf pg 6 ) it says:
"Recreational fishers must only collect abalone
for themselves and not for other people, even
if they are part of the same group."
It doesnt mention the same thing for crays, just that you cant sell them nor barter them. I.e. cant give to someone with an expectation of a reward. You can give them away though instead of exchange. However, it may still be illegal to fish for someone elses bag, but for abalone fisheries felt the need to make it crystal clear. It probably is ok to fish for someone else on boats bag if following all the rules in the booklet, but a fisheries officer may see it different (and use the codified laws, not the information booklet). Even if you argue successfully in court that its not illegal, then you still have to deal with all that crap if you get checked by a fisheries officer that doesnt feel the same.
bellony
Posts: 94
Date Joined: 27/01/10
Thanks Hlokk. Proves I
Thanks Hlokk. Proves I hadn't read this years rules booklet, which has grown quite a lot from previous ones. good to see they have made it clear now.
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
Thats the way
Thats the way i see it too. I can't actually find anything in the crayfish guidelines that says you have to catch the crays yourself. ( correct me if thats wrong)
But with the Abalone it is clearly stated you cant have someone collect them for you.
And as for the FFB licence, other people can fish and share the bag limits with the licence holder(s). as long as no boat or bag limits are breached. I know that is not what the question is about but it you read the rules , its like they actualy encourage people to share boat limits with fish but other things like the Abalone it is a big no no.
Cheers Grant
Trevor68
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This is assuming though that
This is assuming though that you are able to catch 24 cray's :p hahaha
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scotto
Posts: 2470
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My thoughts,
The question of is it legal, the answer is no. Deep down, we all know this.
However, the question that needs to be asked is, is it wrong?
scottnofish
Posts: 1617
Date Joined: 28/08/07
its pretty easy really
your mates catch the crays surface behind the boat then pass you there snare then open the catch bag you then snare your 8 crays and bring them on the boat
your mates can now land there 8 crays ,no rules broken you can now sleep at night
hilly9
Posts: 282
Date Joined: 13/10/12
Just tie a rope and your
Just tie a rope and your float to the diver... human pots
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
I haven't read all the
I haven't read all the previous posts so if i am going over new ground, apologies. I think you will find fisheries (correctly) refer to 'actively' fishing. I tried to get a definition out of them before about what constitutes an angler. ie when does my five year old son constitute as an angler. the response was that he has to be fishing, ie a liine in the water, not just sitting on the boat.... he used the example of abalone fishing, mum and dad down in the water, while 3 and 4 year old kids sit in the car in the carpark playing technology, doesn't constitute four licences, even if the kids are licensed. they have to be in the water collecting to be able to keep the bag limit for each licence. i see the same here, you need to be in the water collecting as well.
Fish! HARD!
sea-kem
Posts: 14883
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Good thread Grayzee. Can of
Good thread Grayzee. Can of worms now comes to mind. On my boat everyone gets a fair share whether they caught it or not. Pretty sad if you invite someone out, you catch all the fish and at the end of the day send him home empty handed. I had someone do that to me on my boat once needless to say he never got asked to come out again. Damn I've been out and the Deckie's ripped in two good Dhus before I even got a line in the water. Ummm you better put that back as I need to physically catch one ...yeah right.
Love the West!
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
Agree it is a great thread
Agree it is a great thread and perhaps one that needs interpretation from fisheries or perhaps some lobbying from recfishwest if required. i think the issue is 2 or 3 bag limits, ie 16 or 24 crays? i hadn't read the posts before i commented, and having read some of them now, i am starting to think the driver of the boat is an active angler in this case.... particularly in regards to the safety aspect.
Fish! HARD!
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
sorry Randal, I absolutely
sorry Randal, I absolutely disagree-we DO NOT need Fisheries to interpret it.
Look how big the rule book is now-does it need to be any bigger telling me I can help my 5 year old to catch a fish/cray and how many % help Im allowed to give before we cant keep the fish?
Honestly-Fisheries (and the government in general) LOVE this shit-everyone is so shit scared that they MIGHT be doing the wrong thing...
Use your morals first to decide whats wrong and right first.
If I take a feed of fish to my doddery old neighbour, and I say "get us a beer will ya, Im thirsty"- then "technically" I could be seen to have done something wrong.
I know I havent and wouldnt care if DOF did, but if you put that question to them do you reckon you'd get a straight answer?.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
Hey, i'd like the problem of
Hey, i'd like the problem of being faced with exceeding my bag or boat limit... but as i am not a great fisherman yet i don't have to worry about it. but if fisheries clarify it, then it might save someone inadvertingly doing the wrong thing one day and suffering the stress of defending it in court and costing them a lot of money, perhaps losing their boat.... fisheries could say yay, or nay, or you could test it out, get charged, contest it in court, appeal the decision if it doesn't go your way, pay a lawyer shitloads of money and get some case law established..... (that might not be in your favour).... your choice.
Fish! HARD!
chris raff
Posts: 3257
Date Joined: 09/02/10
Exactly ...simple , it's
Exactly
...simple , it's teamwork on a boat until the tally's met
“Intelligence is like a four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places.”
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
100% with Chris
100% with Chris
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Bodie
Posts: 3758
Date Joined: 05/11/07
me too, spot on, fish, crays,
me too, spot on, fish, crays, boat limit done!
grayzeee
Posts: 2283
Date Joined: 09/07/09
Rob H You're right.Last thing
Rob H
You're right.
Last thing we need is yet more red tape . Bloody bureaucracy going nuts.
I see it as whats written should be adhered to , and whats not written isn't to be concerned with.
Do we really want/need to be told when to have a piss, because we can't think for ourselves?
If I spent half as long fishing , as I do reading this bloody forum , I'd be twice the fisherman I am.
high Noon
Posts: 22
Date Joined: 27/10/11
illegal
If you were under fisheries servaliance you would be fined. You did not catch your quota.
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
Put the question
to the FD and see what answer you get.
And some should read all the posts again.
Fkn circle
Cheers
carnarvonite
Posts: 8631
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Right
High Noon has it right, spoke to our local officer when I renewed my licence today and he gave the same exact answer, you have to be ACTIVELY fishing, not standing there holding the wheel. Even just putting one hand on the pot as it comes over the side is enough while not touching it isn't.
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
exactly as I said John-ask
exactly as I said John-ask the question, the answer will ALWAYS be a negative or non-committal.
And with all due respect to your local guy, and of all places in WA (Carnarvon) he wouldnt stick his neck out and give any other opinion than a negative.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
see the thing is for me is
see the thing is for me is that the regs dont specify who must catch the crays , it only seems you must have alicence to catch and posses crays , it doesnt state actively fishing or not as i can ascertain, so long as your all in the same boat
so the grey areas are as follows at what point is a bag limit of crays not legaly caught ? or at what point if any is the law broken ?? if all 3 blokes on board hold alicence for rock lobster & 24 crays are caught between them &kept ,
1 if you are just driving the boat and dont get wet ,but keep a shared out bag limit anyway ??because the crays where caught by legal methods by licenced fishers up to a joint possesion /boat limit ?
2 all 3 are swimming around & one of them is following thier dive buddys with the catch bag , but does not snare any , but keep a shared bag limit anyway ??
3 all 3 are diving , one guy gets 10 , second guy gets 10 3rd guy gets 6, they all swim back to the boat , return 2 and share the other 24 between them anyway ??
4 all three are diving , one guy is red hot and catches 18, the other two get only 3 each , they all swim back to the boat and share the catch anyway
5 ,, 3 blokes set theri 2 pots each , go to check em , the first guys pots catch 22 crays , the other 2 guys pots are damaged and only catch 1 cray , but they share the total catch between them anyway even though most of the crays came from one guys pots ??
6 ,, 3 blokes set theri 2 pots each , go to check em , the first guys pots catch 24 crays , the other 2 guys pots are damaged and catch no crays , but they share the total catch between them anyway even though all of the crays came from one guys pots ??
7 a bloke sets 2 pots , next day he goes out with a mate to check em , he pulls them and lands 12 crays , his mate has a licence they keep the 12 crays ?? even though they cam from only his two pots ??
question is how complicated do you want it to get ?? who is deemed to be actively fishing and why ??because he drove the boat ??cause he was wet and swimming ?? cause he caught some crays ?? cause he had pots in the water with alicence even if his pots caught nothing ?? who broke the law and why ??
just to dam difficult to rule on every possible variant imho , keep it simple , stick to the GUIDELINES 3 licences , 3 possesion limits , so long as all are size and legal , thats my interpretation
i reckon on any giiven day you would get a different rulling from dof on this via the phone or boat ramp stop ,
when i dived &still pot we could have many variations on any given day as above , i sleep well and dont consider any laws broken at all
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
grayzeee
Posts: 2283
Date Joined: 09/07/09
Well ,thats it Hezzi.
Well ,thats it Hezzi.
If I spent half as long fishing , as I do reading this bloody forum , I'd be twice the fisherman I am.
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
(No subject)
My take on this as above and all similar threads is-
"the State and Federal Government employs hundreds of thousands of people whose job it is every day to think up new ways to tax, restrict and control us. Dont make it easier by ASKING them to do it more."
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Big Fella
Posts: 43
Date Joined: 10/02/12
Jim
Posts: 1327
Date Joined: 05/05/06
Aint that the truth!
Aint that the truth!
Bend over
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
My heads
fkn sore now, cheers Hezzi
It's a big DOH
We all should read the book "Hotel K"
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
its only the half of it
its only the half of it really if you want to go asking hairy questions about grey areas or interpretations on the regs on any given day from any DOF officer either by phone or at a stop check ,
look at some of these scenarios below and ask the same questions , is it legal , if yes why ?/if not why not ??im sure you will get different answers for all of them if you try different officers in different locations
under the regs/guidelines you are allowed to carry /set /pull 6 pots on a boat in one trip ,
1 is one trip per day ?
2 can you skipper a mate out to check his pots after you have checked your 6 even if you dont touch his gear at all , so your not actively fishing under the ask an officer definition of whats legal ?
3 can a mate borrow your boat to check his pots after you have checked your 6 ?but you wait on the beach /boat ramp ?
4 is one trip defined as leaving home and launching the boat, at the ramp , then going out to pull the 6 pots, ?on arrival back at the ramp , you meet a mate , his boat motor wont start, he asks you can you use your boat to go back out to allow him to pull his 2 pots, ? unusual , but it happens bit of a twist with mitigating circumstances to ponder ?
if you do have you broken the law ? was it two trips or one as the boat hull didnt leave the water ?? what if the boat was actually back on the trailer in the carpark when you relaunched it , is that two trips or one ?? do you have to return to your residence maybe then come back and launch to make it two trips ?? and even if so if you use the same boat is it legal in the same day /24 hour period ? at waht point did you break the law and why ??
ok , so you can pull six pots from your boat in one trip , under the regs right , so scenario as below
1 3 licenced blokes leave the ramp in their boat, they pull the 6 pots,keep any crays caught that are within the legal regs , tail clip em etc , problem is they left the cray bait at home , put in some occy for demersal fishing , but no cray bait , so they decide maybe they can catch something to put in their pots like sweep or trumpeter so they then head out to fish for 4 hours, catch a few fish which they can use to put in the pots, so they go back and repull theri own pots , bait them , return to the beach ? have they pulled more than 6 pots in one trip ?? did they break the law ?
2 if they had of gone back to the ramp and tied up , or the beach and landed , but the hull didnt leave the water is it one trip to pull 6 pots or two trips ?
3 one of the guys has a new heavy steel bottom slate pot that is jammed stuck , he cant get it back , but he decides to mark it with a blank float , in case he can get a dive buddy to unjamm it for him later , i mean a new pot is bloody expensive right for the average guy .you dont wat to just cut off the rope if you might be able to get it back ??.
so over the next month ,the weather turns shitty and smashes his stuck pot , smashes all the battens off it , just leaves the frame , he can see it in 6 mtres of water but , he still cant unjamm it , so he cant fish with it and he puts another pot in the water , with his floats id etc, so he is fishing with two pots again and the one jammed stuck , damaged pot , with no id is still in the water ? is he breaking the law ?/how long must he wait till the pots /rope disapears ? or must he cut off the rope immediatly and kiss goodbye to his salvage possibilitys and being ecco minded he wants to remove it from the ocean even though the pot isnt able to catch or keep anything ?
4 the 3 guys go out to check their pots , the one guy with the stuck pot and 2 others, they check all their 6 pots , keep some crays all legal etc ... one of em decides he can dive and unjamm the stuck damaged pot frame , he does so and they pull it onboard, the boat, take it back to the ramp/beach , did they pull more than 6 pots is it legal ? why did they break the law if they did so ?
5 three guys go out to check their pots, all with licences etc, they all pull their pots , and re set them , after ten minutes two of the guys decide they have seen their mate set on better ground , so they decide to re pull their two pots each and re set them near their mates spot, in total they have pulled a pot into the boat 10 times , but only pulled their 6 pots, have they broken the law ??if so why ? what is the difference ?
see how complicated it can get if you want it to ??
having gone fishing for crays both diving and potting for a very long time [45 years ] all the possibilitys above have been experienced at some time among the guys i fish with & myself &sons , we have had experience of varying different anwers from fisheries about most of them
the rules are made to try to fit a general set of behavoiurs of sustainable fishing practices , common sense should prevail with all these regs , their not designed to turn average fishos into criminals imho
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
Rig
Posts: 2925
Date Joined: 27/12/06
classic
Classic Hezzy, you should paste those 2 posts in an email to fisheries. It would cause a melt down and the likely response would be they email you the rec lobster fishing pamphlet.
your spot on about complicated rules turning average people unknowingly into crooks, make it hard for the fisheries inspectors to have a grip on what they are inspecting and as others have said it turns into a matter of opinion which sucks if you end up copping a fine for it.
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
rig thing is if depending on
rig
thing is if depending on the officer at the time you might get a summons or not
i have had experience out in the boat like this ,
1 i had two pots in the water , for several weeks , a mate wanted to join me , so one friday we put two pots in for him near to mine , unbaited just 50 metres out from a local reef spot, , the sea breeze was blowing hard in the arvo when we put his in the water and we had a 3.1 metre tinny , so we just dropped em in close to the beach , in and out quickly ,
next day he is called in to work at 5am he cant go with me , but he asked me if i could move his pots out deeper nearer to mine on the calm easterly early morning , by myself,
with his permission i pulled his unbaited pots and dropped them about 100 metres from mine , then checked mine , got one size cray , headed back to the beach ,
a fisheries officer approaches he has watched me from the top of a sand dune , [routine stake out it seems , ] asks , did you pull 4 pots, yeh i said , i did , explained the situation, gave him my mates name, phone adresss etc, he checks my cray , and advises me he will report it , ill need to wait the outcome ,
anyway 3 weeks or so later i get summonsed , myself and my mate , go to court 9 months later i defend it , and win , their was no moral intent of wrong doing , the magistrate understood and interpreted my intent , and found in my favour ,DOF officers at court on the day where not happy, and one of em let me know it !!
case 2 another time , off margs , under surveillance [we didnt know ] we pulled our 4 pots, and then salvaged with a small killik a damaged and smashed pot,of ours that had been stuck and then became freed we had marked with a blank float about 2 weeks earlier pulled it back onto the boat, took it into the beach ,
DOF officers had had a surveilance operation going , watching abalone divers on the same bit of coast , the officers stopped and asked us about our catch and the pots etc, we explained about the old salvaged one of ours , he said it was fine , no probs , however he surprised us by asking why we had pulled 5 pots, ?? so at first we thought he was talking about the damaged one again .........but no , he was adamant he had seen us through binoculars or telsecope pull a fifth pot out on the water & even baited it up ??, anyway we argued the point about it on the beach , eventually in anger i defied him to come back out with us and show us , find the EXTRA POT ?? WITH BAIT ?so out we go , me and him , left my mate and my son aged 12 on the beach with the second officer ,who he started to ask questions of about our fishing in detail etc, hoping to trip himup on something maybe ?
we ran around out on the water for an hour , he pulled over 10 other pots, within 2km none had fresh bait other than our 4 , bu he was adamant, about what he reckoned hed seen
eventually i took him back to the beach , as we where low on fuel , he admitted he couldnt find anything to support his claim , but he would not apologise or admit he was wrong ,
after a short consult they left the beach , no problem with us pulling and having the extra damaged salvaged pot onboard, just lost focus on us when we must have been pulling the other 4 somehow and thought he saw a fifth from their vantage point way up along the beach dunes ?? go figure ?
most of the officers are good guys , but they dont always get it right either , their human
iv learnt to read the regs, interpete them as best as you can ,sometiems re check then follow your moral compass, if they decide to stick you with something ill defend it and argue the point with them ,
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
Cruise Control
Posts: 973
Date Joined: 03/11/10
I found this thread really
I found this thread really interesting and just so we can get a new slant on this, how do you think I would stand in this scenario ?
My Bro-in-Law loves catching crays, he cant eat them as he is allergic but he loves to catch them (legally, with a licence, in pots), he gives them away to family and friends. So . . . . if I go out to Rotto in my boat and spend the day with them on their boat (a 38 footer) having lunch, swimming, socialising etc and then just as we jump back on our boat to return to the mainland he chucks us a half dozen live crays (he knows we like them !) that he has has hanging in cages in the water off the bow off his boat. Great we say, thanks very much, chuck them in an esky and off we go.
We get to the ramp and fisheries want to look inside the boat as they can see we have rods and swimming gear and find 6 live crays and I dont have a licence .. . . . . . errrr . . .
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Id say in that case you'd be
Id say in that case you'd be screwed.
Cos they havent been landed yet.
This is a point that many seem to get wrong-you do not have to have a licence to have a possession limit, but you do to land them.
Possession limit is for when you are onshore.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
jettyrat
Posts: 62
Date Joined: 08/11/11
it,s illegal
It is illegal because you are benefiting from someone else's effort and equipment. Just like pulling everyone else's pots till you bag out.
dumper
Posts: 1027
Date Joined: 03/04/08
Wtf? Someone has their wires
Wtf? Someone has their wires crossed
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
Possession limit
is a limit set by the fisheries dept, yes????. When you have reached this amount, you have your bag limit and it don't matter a .... whether you are on or offshore.
Rob H
Posts: 5751
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Possession limit is
Possession limit is completely different and irrelevant. You dont even need a licence to have a possession limit
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Longole
Posts: 55
Date Joined: 20/02/11
Daily bag limit per lic
Daily bag limit per lic person is 8. Sure he can give them to the skipper on the water (if he also has a lic - on shore / at ramp no lic needed) however he can't then catch another 8 that day. Obviously its hard to prove what did and didn't happen unless you are being filmed. Not arguing this is sensible as it should be about the experience and everyone shares in the spoils IMO
Interestingly New Zealand have got around this problem but recognising it is a smart thing to leave someone in the boat and allow the divers to collect the quota of the skipper / safety person