Dropper loop twisting round mainline

Ok so most people use Patenoster rigs for bottom bashing up to 50mtr.I use 80lb for jewys up here and unless you hook a big lemon or a big tiger seems to be fine unles the jewy dives into a wreck.

My question is how the hell do you stop the dropper loops twisting round the main line ,ive tried twisted droppers,ive tried short twisted,long not twisted short not twisted .but for some reason the loops always end up wrapped around the main line tight so a fish would get a mouthfull of line before it got to the bait.

Ive even tried the 3 way swivels but the line still hangs down and gets tangled.

Any help please .Cheers


dunsborough outdoor sportz's picture

Posts: 83

Date Joined: 11/07/12

twisted dropper

Thu, 2012-09-13 09:58

gday Captain,

 

I use a similar rig to what you are using for my surf casting, and have figure out a couple of ways to minimise line twist. The first is to try shogun 3way crane swivels. rather than being a triangular style threeway, they are actually just two swivels joined, to make a 360 degree turning ability. The other option is to use single strand wire for your hook loop. It makes the dropper more rigid, and sits out and away from your main line. The final thing i have done which is more to stop stingrays from sucking your baits up, but it also stopped line twist, and that was to cut a wine cork in half, and then cut a slice into the core of the cork so your line can slide into it. it makes your bait buoyant, and isnt a bad trick. if you choose the wire option, still try and track down some of those shogun swivels, as they really help. hope that gave you a couple of ideas.

Cheers,

 

Zac@DunsboroughOutdoorSportz

 

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Dunsborough Outdoor Sportz

grayzeee's picture

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Use heavier poundage or

Thu, 2012-09-13 10:02

Use heavier poundage or stiffer leader for your droppers off 3 way crane swivels and keep them shorter

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Gday zac wow thanks theres

Thu, 2012-09-13 10:05

Gday zac wow thanks theres some gret ideas there i like the wire idea and the cork ill give them a try and ill look for some of those swivels .

Thanks again Cheers

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Date Joined: 09/03/12

Thanks grayzeee Ok ill give

Thu, 2012-09-13 10:07

Thanks grayzeee 

Ok ill give that a whirl to makes sence heavyer mono is stiffer .shorter loops ,i recon ive gone  down to about 3" so ill try em smaller

Cheers

hlokk's picture

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Date Joined: 04/04/08

Usually the main reason

Thu, 2012-09-13 10:20

Usually the main reason you'll get twisting is from the bait spinning. Placing it carefully on the hook instead of just shoving the hooks though a "chunk" of bait will make it swim more naturally. If you just hold it in the water a meter below the boat, you can see how it swim. If it just twists around one direction, then having it drop down to the bottom introduces all those twists. Same with when you retreive which can lead to a tangled mess. When using droppers, the 3 way cranes that dunsborough mentioned work well to be able to undo the twists, but to stop the twists, you need the bait to not twist (i.e. put on straight and streamlined).

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Date Joined: 09/03/12

Thanks hlokk yer i try to use

Thu, 2012-09-13 10:37

Thanks hlokk yer i try to use long piesces eg squid  to avoid twists ,dont put chuncks  but i will check it out and pay more attention to my bait presentation.

Cheers

Andy Mac's picture

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Date Joined: 03/02/06

Line selection

Thu, 2012-09-13 11:28

 I've found that a nice stiff line like Penn 10x is good for rig making. Its cheap and at 100lb its stiffness will make your droppers less likely to tangle. Avoid lines like Jinkai which are much more supple and will flop around more.

Everything else said earlier is absolutely spot on too, I prefer twisted droppers only because I can tie them in my sleep and they don't use as many knots as three way swivels and when you lose a lot of rigs to broken ground the lower cost makes a difference too. Having said that if there is a lot of current I prefer the three ways to lessen the twist even more. If you do go the three way route then make sure your sinker is tied on with a lesser poundage line so if it gets snagged thats all you lose.

Bait presentation plays a big part not only in avoiding tangles but in getting a fish to see it naturally ad hook up. Extra time taken in that part will pay dividends.

 

The interesting thing about using wire in your rig is that in the UK thats how Paternoster rigs used to be made. The whole thing was wire with perfectly horizontal arms or droppers that held the bait well away from the line. I think the visibility of wire would put me off though in our nice clear waters. I still use wire in my hook rig but hide it inside the mantle of the whole squid I use as bait.

Good luck.

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crasny1's picture

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Date Joined: 16/10/08

Often not an issue going down

Thu, 2012-09-13 11:37

and the bait present OK, but you dont see it. On the way down the sinker "drags" the rig down and the bait trails. Provided it doesnt twist high on the line it then sinks away and drift in the current (if there is any) away from the heavier sinker.

However when you wind up to check bait etc, the line does twist together because of water drag, and often can fool you into thinking it is always twisted, when in fact it only happened on the way up.

Also if it is an issue, look at your leader line. Some brands are stiffer than others at the same Breaking lbs. A stiffer line leads to a stiffer loop logically, so it sticks out more.

I use simple surgeons knot looks, not twisted and dont have an issue with bites. It does twist on retrieve if bait is left on, but if "stolen" and only the hook comes up, its usually free.

Lately up in Dampier the Noah's have been thick, and bite off's are common. Hence Main to snap swivel (quality), but at least 2 O's bigger than line size, then a basic rig off surgeons loop to Snap, surgeons loop to sinker (can change rapidly if current etc demands) and a long dropper. We only use single Paternoster rigs, but if you use 2 make sure they dont "Meet" to prevent twists on the way down.

Hope this helps a bit.

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tim-o's picture

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I was guna say same as

Thu, 2012-09-13 13:16

I was guna say same as carnsy, twistn on way up, maybe bomb sinkers with a swivel will help

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Date Joined: 09/03/12

Thats all awesome info

Thu, 2012-09-13 15:13

Thats all awesome info fellers thanks for taken the time to send me your ideas.

i think my problem id the line i use 80 lb schnider which is a soft line ,and a line like black magic ,so ill go look for some penn 10 x ,Thanks andy mac.

Like the sound of the loops without the exxy swivels.

Yer good point there crasny-1 thats definatley  a problem that might be happening ,i always try to lower the line slowly but often foget and let the rig smash to the bottom.

yep thats a great idea as well with the three way a lighter line on the sinker.

,and you use a surgeons knot wow i thought the twisted dropper was easy to tie .ok ill give that a try to Sat lol.

The tide here is a problem with big tides over 7 mtr.But jewys always bite in the slack water or as it slows or moves again.So thats a bonus i spose.Like the idea of hiding the wire in the squid body.

Ive got plenty of things to try so ill get back to you Sat night and let you guys know how i went .

Cheers

crasny1's picture

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I hope I have it right

Mon, 2012-09-17 10:14

But a surgeons dropper loop has to be the easiest of all knots. Despite the fancy name (and yes surgeon's use it) it a a double granny. Just have the leader, pick where you want the loop, extend the lenght to the desired loop lenght, forming a double line. Then Grany double, and you pull tight. There you have it, a very very simple knot loop. Terminal Surgeons loops I would never use in comps, ie as mentioned leader to swivel, because it isnt as strong as some better knots, but does it for me who fishes for fun, and the leader is always heavier then the main line.

Despite this I can recall a failure in the piss easy knot for ages, and as a loop dropper in a leader it cant fail.

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"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk

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Booms

Thu, 2012-09-13 21:08

I know booms were used a lot in the UK and have thought of using them for surf paternoster rigs, but have never seen them....well, always forget to look TBH.

 

http://www.ecvv.com/product/493770.html

 

 

Something like that would force the rig to sit out away from your mainline and reduce twist. Lots of different styles and sizes....you may need to experiment to find one that will not impact too much on casting if distance is a factor for you. Boils down to where you are fishing. 

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Date Joined: 09/03/12

Gday buschy thanks mate ,yep

Fri, 2012-09-14 19:53

Gday buschy thanks mate ,yep seems like it would be a good idea ,thanks for your help.

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Date Joined: 09/03/12

Gday well im having trouble

Sun, 2012-09-16 07:42

Gday well im having trouble finding the PEN10X line but one guy told me theres a couple of brands instinct was one 

Not sure of the other but they are the same ive been told.

I found some no name stiffer 100lb in the shed ,so tied the loops then went for a fish and the eyes of the hooks were to small to fit throught the loops .grrrrrr Now i have to find a dam hook with a bigger eye.as a 4 to 6 /o hook is plenty up here .For where i fish anyway ,so i have another problem now .

The longer loop and heavier line and the dropper loop knot seemed to work well .I am going to try a bottom rig next time with a surgeons loop .the loop was only  slightly twisted round the mainline ,which as crasny 1 said probably hapens on the retrieve as when the hook came back empty it was not twisted.

  so i think ill try a shorter loop as the loop to

as the loop i tried was about 30cm long .i noticed that  using strips if squid instead of a chunk. though it  was a pain and fidly having to put 3 or 4 stips to fill the hook .seemed to swim a bit more real in the tide .and i wasnt wasting a whole squid on pickers.Plenty more things to try ,next time im going to take quiet a few different choices of rig and see which 1 is the best .

Thanks again

allrounder's picture

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Date Joined: 10/11/08

Given you are fishing the way you are and where you are

Sun, 2012-09-16 08:20

 i would run a drift bait system. 

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So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?

  • was sponsored by Atomic Lures and Shimano but they dropped me.Now sponsored by Fog Dog(The best fish coating out there) and raider lures.

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Date Joined: 09/03/12

Gday allrounder ,hmmm sounds

Sun, 2012-09-16 19:10

Gday allrounder ,hmmm sounds like the go what is it .Im off to google ,drift bait system.

Cheers

Posts: 58

Date Joined: 09/03/12

Thanks allrounder ive been

Mon, 2012-09-17 07:07

Thanks allrounder ive been checking out ryans threads on D/B But still a tad confused i know you have the hooked snelled to the end of the trace ,then a been sinker and a swivel ,not sure on the length of the leader ,i get the picture its not much matbe 500mm or so and is the sinker squashed on the line between the hook and the swivel ,or closer to the hook.i gather this method is only good if drifting over  good bottom,or on the slack of the tide ,or on neap tides as once the tide starts to roar anything to light is surfing behind the boat .

Any help please Cheers Again fellers.

allrounder's picture

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Date Joined: 10/11/08

i have started running the sinker

Mon, 2012-09-17 09:38

 above the swivel so you dont lose all your lead to sharks.Using a downrigger will be another option you can even get ones now that keep your bait at a set distance from the bottom.Then it just a release clip to a basic rig with no lead at all.

 

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So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?

  • was sponsored by Atomic Lures and Shimano but they dropped me.Now sponsored by Fog Dog(The best fish coating out there) and raider lures.

Posts: 58

Date Joined: 09/03/12

Oh thanks for getting back to

Mon, 2012-09-17 10:49

Oh thanks for getting back to me ,but the length of the leader should be ?

So the bead sinker dosent chafe the braid ,that would worry me i recon.

It wouldnt be used when on the pick and strong current ,would it .or do you just up the sinker weight .

Thanks for your help.

allrounder's picture

Posts: 1853

Date Joined: 10/11/08

I run a double in the braid

Mon, 2012-09-17 11:02

 to a length of about 4 meters of wind on leader through the bean/ball sinker to a crane swivel.Then i run about 1/2 a meter of leader line to the hook / hooks.As you loose your hooks to teethy critters you just tie a new hook on. Until the leader gets to short.I run this as my bottom rig pretty much every where and doing drifts or anchoured.

____________________________________________________________________________

So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?

  • was sponsored by Atomic Lures and Shimano but they dropped me.Now sponsored by Fog Dog(The best fish coating out there) and raider lures.

Posts: 58

Date Joined: 09/03/12

Oh ok now i get the picture

Mon, 2012-09-17 19:35

Oh ok now i get the picture thats made the system so much clearer thanks for taking the time out to explain this system more clearly .Cheers Rob