1ks tranducers - skimmer type or shoot through hull

G'Day Guys

Looking for some current feedback on tranducer types.

I am going to acquire a 1kw transducer to suit my HDS8 - the aim is to be able to get a deeper read with better detail. I currently have the bog standard 50/200 skimmer type and whilst this can provide me with a fairly clear reading down to 300m+ the weather needs to be kind and my speed needs to be 5 kts or less otherwise it breaks up. In shallower water, say less than 100m  this tranny can read up to 20kts and provide a solid read but I think I am lacking the detail.

When I speak to the sellers all I get is the "sales speak" and it can be very difficult to filter out the BS in the sales pitch - more important to get personal experience and feedback at to the best setup for me. Transducer needs to go into a 686 Cruise Craft which has a designated space in the bilge to locate a "shoot through the hull" tranny.

As I see it I have 2 choices with a 1 kw, the "shoot through the hull" type or the skimmer type hanging off the back. I'm not interested in cutting a dirty great hole in the hull for a through hull tranny. Appreciate feedback from members as to their personal experience, type of transducer and what sounder it was hooked up to, depth, detail etc etc.

cheers


southcity104's picture

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if you want a better picture at speed

Thu, 2012-09-13 16:10

then you better get over the "dirty great hole" option or 2-3kw shoot through is probly your only option in another sounder.  

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Lastchance's picture

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I've got an LCX112 lowrance

Thu, 2012-09-13 16:26

I've got an LCX112 lowrance (next model after the paper scroll!) with a 1kw tranny (TM260, thanks Tomcat- RIP) mounted on the transom of an alli Preston craft. Reads bottom at all speeds very well, deepest reading was nearly 600m off Exmouth - the only reason we didn't pick up anything deeper was that we didn't go deeper. Not sure about the HDS series' compatible tranny's but if you can, I'd go thru hull as its just one thing less to get your line tangled on, cant get broken off by  low tides or debris in the water and people can't use it as a ladder to get into the boat. PM till, he is right up to speed on these things.

Devils advocate would say change to a furuno. So would I.

Actually, don't want to buy a 10" lowrance LCX112 with a 1 kw tranny do you?

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I just been looking for a

Thu, 2012-09-13 18:49

I just been looking for a transducer for a 685 explorer myself, spoke to Kevin Nichols at cruisecraft his recommendation was for the through hull type. If yours has the spot for the shoot through it must be a older one like mine, I was a bit reluctant to go shoot through hull as it sounds too hollow in that location for it to work to its full potential. I'm probably going with a ss264n 200khz transducer its through the hull but not a huge hole. Most of my fishing is done in less than 100m. If you wanted 50khz they make a matching pair to suit so you would require 2nd transducer but at around $1000 buck a pop they aren't cheap and I don't know if they make them for the Lowrance units. Like south city said probably best get over the hole thing, theres plenty of big holes already in the back of your cruisecraft

glastronomic's picture

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Why in the wide world are

Thu, 2012-09-13 21:09

Why in the wide world are people think that a "more powerfull pinger" get better detail?

It sends a bigger noice down that sends more noice back up.

This has to be filtered out and therefore loses detail.

You might as well have the cheaper/less powerfull units.

The 1 KW power is very misleading anyway!

Plus the frequency of the banging leaves area's without a signal that your "Procerssor" simply fills in with a flat line in between!

This sonar tech has been around for 70+ years and is OLD HAT!

Buying this sort of stuff today makes no sense if you want clarity, speed and detail!

RAW picture files compared to Jpeg files is a similar comparison.

Banging out sonar pulses at more watts is not the awnser anymore, broadband signals and processing technology is here!

And NO I do not flog this stuff,nor do I have shares in this kinda kit, just did some looking into this sort of kit as I want to update as well for my tub. 

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Lastchance's picture

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 A better aerial won't get a

Fri, 2012-09-14 07:36

 A better aerial won't get a better picture either I assume. I upgraded and the results speak for themselves. Totally different sounder.

hlokk's picture

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Fri, 2012-09-14 12:20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio   ;)

 

Although, you're right on the improved methods such as chirp and processing. Until multiband frequencies are more common, a higher power transducer will give you a better reading over a lower powered one if you're approaching the limit of the transducer. E.g. a 600w transducer may pick up the bottom in 300m, but good luck trying to see fish 300m+ deep. Guess what you need to do for a clearer reading? ;)

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The more powerful transducers

Fri, 2012-09-14 16:41

The more powerful transducers are also more sensitive so you can run less gain.

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glastronomic's picture

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Sadly that is incorrect!More

Sat, 2012-09-15 20:56

Sadly that is incorrect!

More powerfull signal send out, more energy bouncing back, more Noice, more filtering (Gain) to eliminate the unwanted energy also called "noice".

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buh?

Sun, 2012-09-16 07:30

Are you really saying that bigger transducers are not also more sensitive?

Airmar state; "TheTm258 is a 4 element transducer and is 25 times more sensitive than the P66."

Are you saying you know more about them than airmar?

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glastronomic's picture

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Transducers are made, almost

Mon, 2012-09-17 21:35

Transducers are made, almost all, by ONE company.

They have now developed and patented the new Broadband fishfinding technology.

Could not Google this?

Never mind.

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So you can't answer that

Tue, 2012-09-18 06:52

So you can't answer that point, so you raise something else?

So what if they patent something else, its called incremental development.

All your chirp advice is coming from google ;)

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glastronomic's picture

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Maybe you should investigate

Wed, 2012-09-26 18:46

Maybe you should investigate who is the actual patent holder of the new Broadband sounder technology!

It might anwser your insinuating leading question.

 

I have been trying to say to fellow fishwreck members here that the technology is stepping up and investigate what is coming up.

Not have the usual shit fight here.

 

 

   

 

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hlokk's picture

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But a more powerful signal

Wed, 2012-09-19 09:44

But a more powerful signal primary signal also returns ;) It doesnt matter how much energy is getting back to the transducer as long as you dont reach saturation point. When you get towards the far end of the limits of a transducer (i.e. too deep), more power will be the difference between seeing the fish and barely seeing the bottom. Anyone who has fished out 300m+ with multiple transducers can attest to that. It's pretty simple physics. You simply require power to penetrate the water column, especially as your energy dissipation is cubically proportional to the distance. A more powerful transducer does not improve shallow water fish discrimination that much, but it makes a huge difference at the deep end.

And what is "noice". I believe it's spelt with an S ;)   And as the SNR is better, you'd need less gain ;)

Seafari's picture

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so you got sucked into the

Sun, 2012-09-16 20:55

so you got sucked into the marketing jargon as well? Speak to the guys who have parted with their hard earned $$$ and purchased very expensive broadband transducers and running expensive broadband sounders is see what kinda results they getting?

scottnofish's picture

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went from p66 to a r299

Mon, 2012-09-17 06:05

 and the difference is incredible

grayzeee's picture

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I think people are suggesting

Fri, 2012-09-14 05:35

I think people are suggesting a better quality more powerful tx will give better detail. (pics on furuno or airmar site to show)

Are you sure you don't sell the stuff Glastro , def sound like the salesman's pitch ?? lol

How about some pics of it in action on your boat after you've actually used it for a while .  You will have no excuses not to bag out it seems.

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glastronomic's picture

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With all respect

Sat, 2012-09-15 20:57

With all respect due;

Technology moves on and the same is on the fishfinder front.

I have here an cigar kinda looking box with black tar copper wires inside and some brass connections on the side that is actualy an ignition system from a Fordson tractor, This was then the latest and greatest a hundred years ago!, sadly nobody even remembers nor recognises this item  any more.

What I am trying to say is that one should do their research before spending their allotment of $$ on this sort of kit if you are in the market to upgrade/buy now.

    

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fisho-ron's picture

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bruce, i run the 1kw wetbox on

Fri, 2012-09-14 06:59

bruce

i run the 1kw wetbox on my hds10 mate, m260 i think it was(the big yellow box) and i think it has made an improvement in the depths i fish. usally around the 40-80mtrs, i have the 600 wetbox on the hds8 beside it and you can see slight increase in deatail on the same settings.

could be overkill for that depths and prob not worth it, but i had plans to head deep, still will one day, but any advantage is better than none at all.

cheers mate

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Think its all about whats

Fri, 2012-09-14 18:55

Think its all about whats within reason too, most of us really are over the moon about having "old hat" technology that only a few years ago was only available to the pro's due to cost. There are plenty of people pros included using "old hat" stuff with exceptional results so theres life left in the old dog yet and given the bag limits available why rush in for the new ? We're still using our fordson super major to put our boat in the water and whilst its 50 odd years old see no need to by a brand new johndere even if it does get me to the beach 5 mins sooner.

marble's picture

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 yep , I wont be changing out

Sat, 2012-09-15 22:11

 yep , I wont be changing out my old fashioned kit for a few years yet. The latest and greatest isnt always the best . I`ll be the first to admit I dont/cant get the best out of the gear I`ve got now, why get anything better ???

 

 How many bloody fish do you want anyway ????

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glastronomic's picture

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A fordson Super Major is a

Mon, 2012-09-17 21:47

A fordson Super Major is a 1950ish diesel tractor.

A fordson  Model F pictured above is from 1917-1928.

It dominated tractor sales till 1928, 750.000 farmers thought it was the greatest and latest.

The tractor development has progressed since them and I did put this up as an example of progress.

Never mind all this, if you do not get the gist of the overall message, so be it

 

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marble's picture

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 The gist is you seem to be

Mon, 2012-09-17 22:44

 The gist is you seem to be able to read a lot of stuff and spruik about it, does that leave you any time to actually get out there and use any of this fantastic kit your constantly banging on about ??

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Bodie's picture

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interesting topic Am going to

Sun, 2012-09-16 21:16

interesting topic

 

Am going to upgrade my current sounder from a Navman fish 4500( i think) to most likely a Furuno 687. Altho some dash remodelling is required for it to fit.

Am also wanting the 1KW transducer as well, and my initial thoughts were Transom moun. (Glass boat)

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Buh? There is a 627 and a

Sun, 2012-09-16 21:52

Buh? There is a 627 and a 587, but not sure there is a 687?

Transom mount is usually the least good of all options, and the one most often taken by ali boats.

You could go for a wet-face through-hull CM260, or the Airmar SS264N through-hulls, or a M260 shoot-through, all better mounting styles than the transom mount, if more work.

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Bodie's picture

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 587, wrong key

Sun, 2012-09-16 22:23

 587, wrong key

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Sure, but the point still

Mon, 2012-09-17 06:15

Sure, but the point still stands re: mounting, for a glass boat, transom mount should be your last option, especially if you want the very best performance possible.

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Bodie's picture

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I dont know alot about

Mon, 2012-09-17 10:28

I dont know alot about Through hull and wet box mounting.

 

Wet box as far as i know needs to be mounted on the inside of the bottom of the hull....which is a mission in itself in a Fury, since its designed to be a sealed / flush deck with only a couple of port holes for access.

Through Hull, i dont know how the are mounted, yet to do much research on it.

 

Like someone else mentioned, not a fan of cutting a hole in the hull either.

glastronomic's picture

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A further and convincing

Mon, 2012-09-17 21:50

A further and convincing point could be a picture of your first option setup of your very best performance possible on your boat!

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I have had the pleasure of

Tue, 2012-09-18 06:54

I have had the pleasure of fishing on a lot of different boats owned by FW members. In doing so, I have seen how a lot of different gps, sounders and transducers work.

Its because of this that I can recommend against transom mount installs, where possible, in favour of available alternatives, for glass boats.

I don't see you having any problems recommending stuff you have never seen much less used, so why do yo take umbrage at me recommending stuff I have actual experience with?

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Bodie's picture

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Till mate, im happy to take

Tue, 2012-09-18 11:16

Till mate, im happy to take recommendations from people who either used or seen other installations.

 

I've got a transom mounted transducer now on the 4500 and this has no issues at all reading at 35 knots. Altho only a small 600 job 

glastronomic's picture

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Again, as before, you do not

Wed, 2012-09-19 07:28

Again, as before, you do not know me nor what I do.

Never mind what equipment I do see and use.

And this is the way I like it to stay.

 

 

-------------00-------------------

In general here on this forum;

I thought that sharing a bit of info when asked by members here was encouraged, but it seems a bit "Hazardous" due to the few "Experts" who seem to have control of what equipment is to be recommended despite fishing electronic technology moving on in a rapid fassion.

 

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marble's picture

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 I thought that sharing a bit

Wed, 2012-09-19 12:22

 I thought that sharing a bit of info when asked by members here was encouraged, but it seems a bit "Hazardous" due to the few "Experts" who seem to have control of what equipment is to be recommended despite fishing electronic technology moving on in a rapid fassion

 

You fit smack bang in the centre of that category Glastro , If you are the expert you profess to be then why not  tell us where you get all this real world experience and information ??

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crasny1's picture

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Yip

Wed, 2012-09-19 12:29

Back to the question. Skimmer, shoot through (or through the hull).

 

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Bodie's picture

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hear hear.Info to support

Wed, 2012-09-19 13:19

here here.

Info to support such answer?

marble's picture

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 820 hrs on our boat since

Wed, 2012-09-19 18:37

 820 hrs on our boat since January 2009 ( 44 months ) staring at a bloody sounder screen and trying to work out what its saying. Yep sometimes it tells  lies and most of the time I have no idea but we do ok :-) 

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crasny1's picture

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Im no sounder expert

Tue, 2012-09-18 09:32

But I do get joy out of my Humminbird setup. But then I only recently stepped up to an Galaxy S3 phone, and now I am told I "Need" an Iphone 5!!! But I was very happy with my old Nokia dumb phone until it broke.

I dont need all the gizmos that I could have on my phone, nor do I need all the gizmos on a new sounder. Its what works for me, and unless I was to change to extreme deep I see no need to change whatsoever.

I think this is how it should be perceived. If what we have serves us right, stick with it. There is always something flash out there to tempt us, but do we need it to catch more fish. In my case - No.

As for the question if I needed one I would go through hull above shoot through above Tranny. But then I am happy with my tranny mounted Trailly Humminbird setup.

JMO.

Neels

PS I could do with another Stella!!!!!

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Willlo's picture

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Dunno how a tractor hanging

Tue, 2012-09-18 10:03

Dunno how a tractor hanging of the back of your boat will catch you any fish LOL.Back to the question, i have a navman 4500 and left it hooked up after i installed a Furuno 585 with the wetbox 1kw transducer.Have run them both at the same time and the bigger transducer gets a way better pic.The only downside of this setup i have found is that you dont get a water temp,which was the main reason i left the 4500 hooked up.A stand alone temp sensor was i think around $300.Dont fish much deep stuff ,living in Bunno its a long hike out there but have used it off Augusta and out from Jurian in the 80's and the comparison was easy to pick.Before i installed i went out on a few diff boats running diff gear did the normal web searches in the end found that for me a basic setup was the easiest to use.I prefer to fish rather than push buttons all day.

Hope this helps

Willo

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Sorry to hijack the thread

Tue, 2012-09-18 10:22

Sorry to hijack the thread but,

is it possible to run 2 transome mount transducers?

 

Will one pick up intereference from the other.

 

I have one garmin sounder & 1 garmin combi. It would be great if I could run both together.

 

Thanks

 

 

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Look for a setting called

Tue, 2012-09-18 11:04

Look for a setting called interference rejection and it will probably help.

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I'll try that.Thanks

Tue, 2012-09-18 11:13

I'll try that.

Thanks

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fact is, most rec fishos have

Wed, 2012-09-19 12:57

fact is, most rec fishos have little hope of utilising all the features of an up to the minute, latest greatest fish finder.

And some of the success using them could even be contributed to the "placebo" effect-where most stuff in under 50-100 meters you will see also on a Navman 4500 if you know what to do-but your more inclined to believe the flash new one and drop on it!

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The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.

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Bodie's picture

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Rob H i here what your

Wed, 2012-09-19 13:24

Rob H i here what your saying

 

However i was recently out on a boat in Karratha which has a BIG Raymarine GPS / Sounder dual screen system in it. It had a 1KW transdrucer and the level of information, colour and clarity of his sounder, way out-performs my 4500. I've fished exmouth a few times in similar depths, and what we could see on the raymarine and mine are totally different.

But what causes this main difference i dont know, larger transducer, newer higher quality screen, simply just new technology, placement of the tranducer... no idea. Probably a combination of all.

But seeing this sounder was the final indication for me that i need to upgrade.

hlokk's picture

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Dont forget settings too. Two

Wed, 2012-09-19 14:52

Dont forget settings too. Two identical sounders may give fairly different results when the settings are not similar.

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thats it exactly hlokk. You

Wed, 2012-09-19 19:57

thats it exactly hlokk.

You can be sitting in the pilots seat of the Space Shuttle but if you dont know how to fly it, its just a big aluminium box.

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 Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...

 

 

The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.

Everyone's just winging it.

 

marble's picture

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 Just get a furuno 295 Bodie,

Wed, 2012-09-19 18:44

 Just get a furuno 295 Bodie, they are proven technology and will catch you all the fish you will even need.

Remember the big hooha when the new lowrance gear came out? More than one bloke bought that and then traded back to furuno later when it didnt live up to the hype.

I`ve spent a fair bit of time on the same boat as ours with raymarine gear and I`ll admit its nice but the furuno is better.

Definately put the effort into a wetbox installation, only way to go in my EXPERT opinion ;-)

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Cruise Control's picture

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Hey GuysThanks for all of the

Thu, 2012-09-20 16:17

Hey Guys

Thanks for all of the comments to my post. When I filter through these there are some real gems of imformation to be found.

I actually rang Cruise Craft about the 685 and they recommended as their first choice the B164 Airmar bronze through hull 50/100 1kw transducer installed in the bilge where the glass is 10-12mm thick, second choice was an Airmar M260 wet box mount and the last choice was a transom mount. At this stage what I intend to do is:

  • Install an M260 wet box transducer with a universal cable and hook it up to my HDS8
  • If thats not giving me what I want I will replace my old Raymarine gear and install a Furuno 585/587 (100,000 people cant be wrong !) and pick up the Furuno universal cable. Leave the Lowrance connected as backup etc.
  • If that doesn't work I will flog off the M260 and install the bronze B164 through hull (I'm praying that it wont come to this!)
  • If that still doesn't work, I'll take up golf. It has to be cheaper !

Last question is, best place to buy . .  . . direct from the states or local. Price differential looks to be about $1k which is just a little too much. . . . . Suggestions ?

Thanks again

Cheers

Scotte's picture

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Hi mate i have similar shape

Thu, 2012-09-20 20:35

Hi mate i have similar shape hull and have put in m260 and it works very well in that flat section.

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Until the crayfisherman and

Thu, 2012-09-20 21:13

Until the crayfisherman and longliners upgrade ther gear to broadband gear i am pretty sure that the average fisho going out once a week to get a feed is more than armed with enough technology if they are using similiar gear . Glastro post some photos of your setup and some of the fish you catch please to show us how bad our furuno , lowrance gear is compared to simrad. BTW A stronger transducer will penetrate deeper into the water with better clarity it just depends on if it is justified to spend that amount of money.

A guy who has his sounder set up correctly and knows how to read it will piss all over any technology new or old, settings are a big part of any equipment.

 

glastronomic's picture

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This and some other posts are

Fri, 2012-09-21 08:11

This and some other posts are just so far of the mark.

The initiator asked for feed back on different transducer types.

I am NOT saying your gear is wrong, just commenting on the fact that technology is moving forward and like mobile phones gear becomes superceded.

Next time swim directly underneath your 1KW transducer while it is operating and expirience the energy it pulses out, the fish feel this as well!

The new broadband signal does not have this.

You are happy with your setup is all that matters.

My posting was only put there to alert people who are looking to update, like I am, about the new gear available.

 

 

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Simrad is just pimp Lowrance

Fri, 2012-09-21 06:21

Simrad is just pimp Lowrance anyway, its all the same company.

Don't mind Glastro, he is just holding his cards close to his chest, hoping we don't notice he has an empty hand ;)

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Vinesh87's picture

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I think its time for glastro

Fri, 2012-09-21 09:28

I think its time for glastro to post thread on Simrad vs the world ! Because i cant follow t across 5 threads.