Jabby Jab

If we are going to post comments about Covid or vaccines, then maybe it should (again) have it's own forum/thread instead of junking up the fishing proposals thread.

The decreased Case Fatality Rates (CFR) over the years is clearly due to the less deadly strains of Covid and less to do with vaccines.
Any analysis of the data that includes dates, variant, cases, death, vaccinated status numbers clearly shows this.
The unvaccinated CFR's have also dropped from those early days of the Alpha Variant of 3%+ to now be below 0.5% (due to Omicron variants being less fatal)

If the vaccines are so effective, why are people still not queuing up for their boosters that they require at least every 6 months to be effective?
The simple answer is because the mandates are no longer forcing/coercing people to get jabbed against their will.
At the start of 2022, there was a period when Australia was averaging over 250,000 doses a day.
We are now down below 20,000 doses a day.

It appears that now people are allowed to make their own informed consent decisions about whether to get doses/boosters or not, they are choosing not to.
To me that either says people do not believe the boosters are effective enough to justify another shot or they only got those shots earlier because they were pressured to do so.

 


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Have you considered the

Wed, 2022-10-12 11:23

Have you considered the impact of apathy on the current take up on boosters? You seem to be quite a crtitical thinker and do your research before posting an opinion, so thought you'd be interested in this short paper When Vaccine Apathy, Not Hesitancy, Drives Vaccine Disinterest jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2780792

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 It may be linked to having

Wed, 2022-10-12 11:51

 It may be linked to having Covid in some cases. I was booked for my 4th jab the first week I was eligible and then got Covid so I can't get it until next month. Not apathy just eligibility for me.

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Why get a booster after covid

Wed, 2022-10-12 12:00

The natural immunity you get from having Covid-19 will offer greater and longer protection than a booster shot, so why would you still plan on getting your 4th booster now?

That is just a question out of interest.
And I get your point that there may be a large number of people who are not getting boosters after having a natural dose of Covid-19.

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 Because that's the advice of

Wed, 2022-10-12 12:38

 Because that's the advice of people who know a lot more than me. I can tell you now, it wont be the worst thing I have ever put into my body!

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 Well this article from John

Wed, 2022-10-12 13:16

 Well this article from John Hopkins contradicts your comments.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know

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too old to be relevant

Wed, 2022-10-12 14:25

Critical thinking should tell anybody that natural immunity will provide better and longer protection against a disease.
To think differently bewilders me and I struggle to understand how a person can let themselves believe something different given our known history of how diseases and vaccines generally work.

The mRNA vaccines are designed to build a person's immune system to offer protection against a part of the Covid-19 virus (ie. the Spike Protien).
Natural immuntiy has your body building protection against the actual disease and a multitude of Covid-19's attributes.

And in any case, that article is from 2021 and is not relevant to a discussion about getting a 4th booster shot after having Covid-19 during the Omicron variant.
Even in that article they use terms like "At present ..." because even the experts can change their opinions when the environment and information at hand changes.
If those "Featured Experts" for that article had even waited a few months and seen studies like the Providence Study they would have had better information at their disposal. The Providence Study was conducted by a team of expert clinicians and scientists within the Providence Research Network, the study examined data from over 100,000 patients tested for SARS-COV-2 at 1,300 sites of care across Providence's extensive health care system between October 1, 2020 and November 1, 2021. The researchers observed that prior COVID-19 infection was 85% protective against reinfection and 88% protective against hospitalization, with protection from reinfection lasting for up to nine months following the initial infection, as far out as they were able to study.

The important thing to take notice of with that Providence Study is how long the natural immunity lasted.
We now know that the Covid-19 vaccines are not effective just months after. This is why boosters are required (and I may add this is something I tried to point out very early in our past discussions about this on this very website).
 

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Dude, if you actually learned

Fri, 2022-10-14 13:53

Dude, if you actually learned some immunology you wouldn't be posting garbage misinformation and bizarre misinterpretations all the time. 

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And yet

Fri, 2022-10-14 21:57

I was taught at a young age that when people are losing a debate or lack a proper response, they will start using emotive terms or character attacks.

And what I have further learnt during this pandemic is that when a person who believes they know more on this topic is challenged by what they read, they will quickly go down the path of making claims about misinformation with a greater desire to silence my voice rather than actually debate it publicly.

I have posted much on this topic. If it is misinformation, it should be easy for you to highlight that.
(And if you do so well, I will actually change my beliefs appropriately. I'm all for learning and most of what I have learnt on these topics is via open discord with others of differing beliefs ... especially when it is kept civil.)

For example, I looked at another of your posts regarding epitopes and B-cell maturation ... but that quickly led to studies showing high and long lasting effectiveness of natural immunity against Covid-19 which then meant that any validity to what you understand about epitopes and B-cell maturation is irrelevant if you first consider the very high effectivenes of natural immunity. That is, if natural immunity offers 95% lower risk of infection and an 87% reduction in hospitalisation for 20 months, why would anybody be bothered with the risks of getting a jab every 3 months that may only offer a very marginal increase in protection for very limited periods of time?

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why do we recommend a fluvax

Thu, 2022-10-13 07:06

 after flu. You need to look at Antigenic drift and shift, but I suspect that might be above your (and other lay people's) paygrade

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 Boosting after infection

Fri, 2022-10-14 13:33

 Boosting after infection boosts circulating antibody levels and duration. So by getting a booster after being infected you get greater protection that lasts longer. 

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So why 3 month boosters???

Fri, 2022-10-14 17:31


Anybody with an ounce of common sense can figure out that is false if you need a booster every 3 months while studies are showing natural immunity is lasting far longer.

Were you one of those that believed Pfizer when they told you one jab 94% effective way back in 2020?

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 Lol. You argued against

Fri, 2022-10-14 18:54

 Lol. You argued against getting boosted post infection, but it's not a coherent  argument and really makes no sense, because a booster will give you more and longer lasting circulating antibodies. If you want to be better protected for longer, you definitely want to get a booster after infection (with a delay.)

 

Do you even know how to measure antibodies? Or anything about epitopes? What about B-cell maturation? 

 

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Not relevant to Covid jabs

Fri, 2022-10-14 20:04

So why do our Australian Health Experts tell participants to NOT get a booster until 3 months after a natural Covid-19 infection?

Another great example of how real world does not match up to so called "expert" answers.

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"why do our Australian Health

Sat, 2022-10-15 10:48

"why do our Australian Health Experts tell participants to NOT get a booster until 3 months after a natural Covid-19 infection?

Another great example of how real world does not match up to so called "expert" answers."

lol ^

If you actually understood some biology, it makes perfect sense (also you seem to have skipped over the phrase "with a delay" in the post you replied to;)

There are two excellent reasons to recommend that most people to wait 3 months after recovering from infection to get the booster. First, circulating antibodies will start to wane.  Second, B cells, which are the cells that remember how to make the antibodies, undergo affinity maturation in germinal centers, but the process takes time.

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waning antibodies

Sat, 2022-10-15 22:33

We now certainly know that waning antibodies is a problem for the jabs ... which is why they are now recommended every 3 months.
Because we now have real world evidence of the effectiveness.

But what evidence do you have of waning antibodies after a natural infection of Covid-19?
(About a page up) I have already posted evidence from a study that showed good natural immunity lasting 20 months (the limit of their study).

If you are going to make these claims about the benefits of jabs after natural infection, try to quantify them with actual real world effectiveness, otherwise your understanding of biology simply sounds like more vaccine propaganda ... like how the vaccines were supposed to stop transmission. You can get a quick history lesson about Covid-19 vaccine propaganda by reading the news article I just posted (located at the end of this forum at time of this post).

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Aussies uptake low prior to mandates

Wed, 2022-10-12 12:33

I think it is worth remembering that in Australia our vaccine uptake was quite low until we were coerced through mandates and restrictions.
We were generally described to be vaccine hesitant.

That report also mentions people with "vaccine-apathy" may not be considering the right information and listening to experts like Dr Fauci.
Those type of comments do not sit well with me. Fauci has his fingers deep in the Covid-19 pie. He made something like US$5m during the first couple of years of the pandemic (apparently most from royalties ... he's is a public servant getting paid about $400k/yr).

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Shouldn't this

Wed, 2022-10-12 12:52

 

Shouldn't this be in the General Discussion forum? Certainly cannot see any relevance to fishing, but could be wrong. 

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 Skull

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Agree

Wed, 2022-10-12 13:04

Yes, but nobody was complaining about it when it was being discussed in the proposals forum in the fishing discussion.
And I noticed before choosing the location that all sorts of stuff are dumped in the fishing discussion (eg. Friday Funnies).

(If people want it moved to General discussion, I'll try to edit and change it.)

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Sometimes

Wed, 2022-10-12 13:14

 

Sometimes people digress from the original subject as a thread drags on which is the discussion you are alluding to,

As for Friday Funnies, they have appeared in the  Fishing Discussion forum since well before you or I joined Fishwrecked so I will leave that one alone.

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 Skull

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Wrong forum

Wed, 2022-10-12 16:46

Skull I think bluekaiser is fishing, fishing for attention.  

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 My spots are so secret even the fish don't know about them !

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Certainly getting

Thu, 2022-10-13 08:57

 

He is certainly getting of attention Marineboy, has got people discussing things that have absolutely nothing to do with fishing as per this thread in the wrong forum.

Perhaps he is the fisheries minister in disguise. 

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 Skull

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He is fishing

Sat, 2022-10-15 19:46

And getting plenty of bites. Just another non fisherman who studies internet . Also likes cut and pasting . Never posted fish photo . Just another polony man in my books . Could even be related .

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Just for you

Sat, 2022-10-15 22:11

You are right. I have not posted any fish photos. That's never really been my thing. I enjoy fishing more than bragging.
But because that is apparently a concern for you I will rotate a few fish pics as my profile pic in coming days.

And again you are right that I do study the internet ... a great place for learning stuff.
I encourage others to use the internet and do some research for themselves.

Cut and pasting ... not a big fan of it but occassionally I will do if I need to quote an article.
Which, at the time of this post, is something I have done only a few times in this forum (out of some 25+ posts).
It will usually be pretty obvious when I do a cut and paste because I will generally show it in quotes (or as a link).

I have no idea what the polony reference is all about, but again, just for you, I will share some of my recent diet with you and say I did enjoy some Dhufish for dinner.

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The adverse reactions are

Wed, 2022-10-12 15:03

The adverse reactions are really starting to pile up and they will only get worse. The first jab has really affected someone I'm very close to and they aren't the same person after it! To be forced to have something and it didn't stop any spread of the disease which we were told it would has me pretty angry at the world. The story all along was it would stop the spread and like it or not it didn't! The amount of stories we are directly hearing from friends and family that also have had adverse reactions is disturbing.

I can't post the link for some reason in this message. I urge everyone to type in UK government vaccine damage compensation payout into google. It is a 120,000 pound tax free payout from the uk government. Not the company that made the jab. 
 

Yes covid deaths are bad but I'm pretty sure the average age of a death was well over 65 in the US and most of them had a couple of other illnesses. People will argue that there was less deaths because of the jab and I will argue we have damaged a lot of young people that could be stuck with these motor neurone issues for the rest of there life.

The UK government have acknowledged the fuck up and now the UK taxpayer is going to pay. Not the companies that built this rubbish

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 I Googled it and to be fair,

Wed, 2022-10-12 15:25

 I Googled it and to be fair, it covers an awful lot of vaccines including Covid. I unfortunately know 2 people who reacted to the triple antigen as infants. One is severely handicapped and the other has non-verbal autism. Those would be compensable in the UK but 120,000 pounds is fuck all.

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 Yeah sorry about that I had

Wed, 2022-10-12 21:01

 Yeah sorry about that I had been shown the page secondhand and once having a proper look I did see there were a lot of other proper vaccines on the list. Sorry to hear about the 2 people that you know! 

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Value of vaccines

Wed, 2022-10-12 15:52

For those of this generation  most have not or won't see the value of vaccines, but for the older ones around my age -70+ plenty of us have witnessed the effects of seeing and for some like myself, catching polio' As a child I contacted polio and today still have some problems with the way it affected me and I was one of the VERY lucky ones who it only caused mild symptoms. There are many reminders of banks of iron lungs keeping those unlucky bastards alive. 

Without having the early vaccine available in the mid fifties there would have been tens of thousands of people suffering through their lifetimes with ailments and deformities to this day. 

So when a vaccine becomes on the market to prevent me being savaged by anti vaccers I will be one of the first to pull my sleeve up to save me the effort of trying to punch sense into them

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alternative Polio history

Wed, 2022-10-12 17:59

There are the official narratives about Polio and then there are the alternative narratives about the history of Polio and vaccines.

The alternate versions tell us about people being misdiagnosed as having Polio and how that was changed after the introduction of the Polio vaccines to ensure that very few cases were being reported, basically going from a person with flu like symptoms and achy legs being diagnosed with Polio to in 1958 having to show paralysis for more than 60 days and a strict pathology identification of polio.
Even today, we have things like Acute Flaccid Myelitis (AFM) and Acute Flaccid Paralysis (AFP) that would have been diagnosed as Polio pre-1950's vaccines.

And this is for a disease that killed about 320 Australians (or about 3.8 per 100,000) at it's peak in 1951.

And then there are theories involving DDT being to blame for much of the Polio cases.
And SV40 contamination in Polio vaccines '57-'63 causing cancer.
And I'll finish this quick summary of some of my limited knowledge with this quote I found last time I looked at the Polio jabs;
"Since 2017, there have been 396 cases of polio caused by the wild virus, versus more than 2,600 linked to the oral vaccine, according to figures from the World Health Organization."

 

 

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  More than half of the

Wed, 2022-10-12 16:02

  More than half of the excess deaths in the U.S. in the third quarter of 2021 were caused by COVID-19, Davison said in a statement to The Associated Press, citing CDC data.

“CDC data indicates that 65% of 3Q excess deaths can be directly attributed to COVID,” Davison said. “Our own claims data is consistent with that as well. Based on the data and our analysis, we believe that a significant portion of the remaining excess deaths are driven by deferred medical care and individuals who recover from COVID but later die from the toll COVID has taken on their bodies.”

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-692312045885

I am just gonna park this here- life insurancecompanies make their money out of knowing how many wil ldie when - covid stuffed their industry up- more deaths , by about 40% than they bargained on

since the jab numbers has dropped

luckily u are not forced to get the jab anynore, thats the only thing i hated about it - was the way it was done , but then when i was a kid we got the polio jab , and didnt have a say in it- how many cases of polio do u know of?

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Many

Wed, 2022-10-12 17:26

 Would say about 10, closest to me was a close friend from 5 houses away caught it the same time as me, she had to have many operations to fix her deformities at PMH. At the time our school in Northam was brand new with only 7 class rooms, there would have been one or two in each class. 

Give you food for thought doesn't it

BlueKiaser's picture

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Insurance premiums

Wed, 2022-10-12 19:00

Insurance premiums have skyrocketed since the jabs and totally disproportionate to the number of Covid-19 excess deaths.
For example, my own insurance went up 14% from 1999 to June 2020 (actually a little less than the previous year). But then 64% for the two years from June 2020 to June 2022 (after the jabs started).
Likewise the excess deaths are far greater than just Covid-19 deaths and much higher after the introduction of the jabs.

CDC has previously stated that just 6% of Covid-19 deaths had no other comorbidities attributed to the death.
Each Covid-19 death had an average 2.9 other comorbidities.
This is supported by the very low percentage of deaths in the younger age demographics.

And anybody who happens to wake up to how the globalists use the mainstream media as a propaganda tool quickly realises that Associate Press and factcheck sites are regularly used to help push their agendas and narratives.

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 When the March 2020 wave

Mon, 2022-10-17 19:45

 When the March 2020 wave went through Italy, they were losing an astronomical amount of people as the severe cases had over run the health system. My company lost scores of people, with 2.5% of staff passing in one factory alone. 

 

 

 

You can spew all the ant-vax, anti-government rhetoric that you want, but at the end of the day you are the type of person who would've been a member of a cult or wacky religion in the days before the internet. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180925075108.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Mulie

BlueKiaser's picture

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No vaccines in March 2020

Mon, 2022-10-17 21:34

I was telling friends that the China virus was going to be nasty, global and around for at least 10 months very early on in 2020.
In fact I was telling friends to get their money out of the stock market in early to mid Feb '20 just days/weeks before it dropped about 30%
This is because I study world politics and listen to a wide range of alternate news given my lack of trust of the mainstream media.

I was also saying that we should be closing down international borders and isolating the virus until we knew what we were dealing with.
But what did the globalist world leaders choose to do instead? They allowed China to continue to fly thousands of workers (many infected) in to Italy.

And I read that 2018 article that you posted a link to and it was actually quite good.
I took a special note of the following from it;
"Democrats are more likely to believe that Trump's campaign "colluded" with the Russians, Hart said."
The funny thing is, while the mainstream media, especially in Australia, were pushing the Democrat's narrative of Trump colluding with Russia, Trump supporters (myself included) were saying that was a conspiracy theory ... which evidence now shows it was a conspiracy theory invented by the Democrats and the Christopher Steele dossier. Recent admissions in the current Durham probe trial happening now also shows the FBI facilitated it. They were paying Steele and even offered him an extra $1m to corrobate it's contents ... which Steele could not do because it was nonsense slander against Trump. The FBI still used the dossier to help them get their FISA warrants to spy on Trump 1 month prior to the 2016 Presidential elections.

And then secondly, the article stated;
"After Watergate, the American public learned that seemingly outlandish speculation about the machinations of powerful actors is sometimes right on the money," he said. "

I could also name many topics that were once conspiracy theories that are now accepted as common fact by the majority of people.

Swompa's picture

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Jeez I opened up a can of

Wed, 2022-10-12 17:37

Jeez I opened up a can of worms in that fishing thread, just in time for the demersal ban where there will be plenty of bored people on this site.....and a few tin foil hatters

 

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 The beauty and curse of the

Wed, 2022-10-12 20:14

 The beauty and curse of the internet is no matter how far fetched your little agenda is , somewhere , someone will have posted something that agrees with said little agenda . If you have the time and can be bothered searching for it that is  . . The thing is the easily led , small minded and usually not so intelligent will take that as gospel and repeat it over and over and over and over again . . . . Statistics and memes . . . So many ways to interperate both when critical thinking is an every day  struggle . . . 

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carnarvonite's picture

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So true

Wed, 2022-10-12 20:22

 You can please or fool some of the people with smoke and mirrors some of the time but in the end the blinkers must come off and the truth comes out. 

If you don't like it then go and shut yourself in a dunny and lock the door because  the world will pass you by

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 Oh well I'm going fishing

Wed, 2022-10-12 20:48

 Oh well I'm going fishing for 2 weeks so I think I'll just slip away quietly!

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 PGFC member and lure tragic

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report

Thu, 2022-10-13 08:04

 make sure to post a trip report when you get back to break up the politics!

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 I will mate. I know how to

Thu, 2022-10-13 11:14

 I will mate. I know how to upload photos now so I'll try to keep good records as the beer will mess with my recall!

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My sister lives in a rabbit

Thu, 2022-10-13 07:33

My sister lives in a rabbit warren and is onto all of them; new world order, fluoride, chem trails, 5G, vaccines, microchips in food etc but she shops at Woolworths, is constantly on her mobile phone 'researching' using Google and uses Facebook to spread her beliefs/theories. The funniest part is that she refers to everyone as 'sheep' yet she appears to sprout the same regurgitated tripe that I've have seen others posting on Facebook of all things. It reminds me of the goths and Emos who sought to be individuals and stand out of the mainstream....  by all dressing the same. The worry is that she is highly intelligent and a school teacher by trade.

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sea-kem's picture

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 The way I see it mate,

Thu, 2022-10-13 08:58

 The way I see it mate, people like this are seeking relevance by thinking they have some extraordinary information and logic that we don't. I find it extremely condecending and disrestpectful of my meagre intelligence. Ole mate here can keep posting his perceived facts, figures and agendas here but it won't change my opinions. 

The way I see it he belives the government should have sat on it's hands, done nothing in relation to public health and just let this virus run rampant. 

I'll take expert medical advice anyday over people who have no qualifications AT ALL, just an opinion. 

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Couldn't agree

Thu, 2022-10-13 09:01

 

Couldn't agree more Andy.

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 Skull

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What experts

Thu, 2022-10-13 10:26

People like Dr Robert Malone who are experts in mRNA technology have had their public voice cancelled and labelled misinformation by those with vested interests.
Likewise, the vast majority of the medical industry has vested interest. BigPharma is big money.

Putting all your faith and beliefs in people who are financially benefiting from pushing vaccines is like believing everything the used car salesman has to tell you.
Just this week we have a Pfizer boss in a EU Commission basically admitting that Pfizer did not know if the vaccine prevented transmission before marketing it.
( https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/pfizer-did-not-know-whether-covid-vaccine-stopped-transmission-before-rollout-executive-admits/news-story/f307f28f794e173ac017a62784fec414 )

I am constantly seeing reports like this because I am open to all sides of this debate.
People who only choose to get their information from a narrow echo chamber will sadly struggle to get a bigger and fairer perspective of reality.

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 Putting all your faith and

Thu, 2022-10-13 12:24

 Putting all your faith and beliefs in people who are financially benefiting from pushing vaccines is like believing everything the used car salesman has to tell you

Gotta love this comment, it's like saying to me my workmanship and product is shoddy because I make money from it. same could go for the rest of commercial society in your eyes. It's a crap analogy.

Isn't it in the best interest of a business to put their best product forward to gain market share?  

People who only choose to get their information from a narrow echo chamber will sadly struggle to get a bigger and fairer perspective of reality. In response to this I find it a bit hypocritical of you as you dismiss all mainstream media so that narrows your information 'chamber'.

We all know whoever owns a particular media source have left and right leanings and I read a lot of them.

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 Very well said Andy. To

Thu, 2022-10-13 12:54

 Very well said Andy. To truly get a full perspective you must be open to all sources of information.

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 PGFC member and lure tragic

BlueKiaser's picture

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So would you believe

Thu, 2022-10-13 14:35

So would you believe everything the used car salesman tells you ... because that was my example.
Your example of your workmanship has no relevance to the point I made and hence is a clear example of you having to use a strawman argument against a valid point ... just to be argumentative.
I would only first get you to do some workmanship for me after doing some research and getting prices and then having some faith (but not ALL faith) that you would do a good job with your skills ... but if you started trying to sell me something I did not think I needed and it appeared it was more for your benefit than mine, then I would probably get scared off from using your services. That is just common sense and something I'm sure you currently do.

My post was in regards to putting too much weight ("putting ALL your faith") on advice from so called experts who are getting their information from places like Pfizer ... a company you have a good reason not to trust given their track record and given the current example I provided of them misleading us about the effecacy of the Pfizer vaccines against infection.

And another clear example of your desire to be argumentative instead of objective and rational, you have a go at me for dismissing mainstream media ... when my post contains a supporting article from mainstream media (ie. news.com.au).
Much of my poor view of how the mainstream media are complicit with their use of propaganda for globalists is because I still read and expose myself to mainstream media content.

Moondog's picture

Posts: 103

Date Joined: 25/06/18

 If I have read this comment

Thu, 2022-10-13 19:03

 I was gonna stay away but I couldn't because I think have read this comment that you are trying to say Pfizer has done the right thing by lying about transmission spread and hiding trial results to gain market share? 

sea-kem's picture

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 It was a rhetorical question

Thu, 2022-10-13 19:18

 It was a rhetorical question mate relating to any business, can't see where I mentioned pfizer. 

Like I said you've made your mind up with anecdotal and speculative evidence. 

So answer me this, how do you think the world would have gone without Covid vaccines? 

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Moondog's picture

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 It looks like you've

Thu, 2022-10-13 20:14

 It looks like you've directly replied to a comment with a link to the Pfizer lies. 

I'm not anti-vax I'm anti something that doesn't work and we've been lied to that it does work. My thoughts would be, We lockdown the oldies, the sick, the vulnerable and whoever doesn't feel safe. We get an extra 2 years to properly develop something that half looks like a vaccine and we administer to the above people as they are at most risk. Also if other people want a shot come and get one we have heaps, if you don't want one that's fine when covid comes around have a couple of days off work maybe even go out and catch a couple of fish, Pfizer sticks to making dick pills and we all live happily ever after.

Also in my world if you are driving around by yourself with a mask on you get a $200 fine for being an idiot 

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 Ha ha ha that's gold,

Thu, 2022-10-13 20:24

 Ha ha ha that's gold, should've passed that onto Mark at the time.

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NSW data paints a good picture

Fri, 2022-10-14 23:49

NSW have been one of the better states to produce data on Covid-19 in Australia during the pandemic.
Below are a couple of real world reasons why I believe we would have done fine with no rushed experimental vaccines;

At the start of 2022 for the week ending 8/1/22, the NSW reports showed that there was;
159,325 Cases for those vaccinated with Two doses.
787 Cases for "No effective dose"

And then more recently their Surveillance reports showed for the last 6 weeks reported;
Hospitalised: 4 out of a total of 1,910 Covid-19 cases had "No doses".
& ICUs: 2 out of 184

The effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines continue to be shown with real world data to be drastically worse than what was marketed.
We already have general acceptance that the Pfizer vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission contrary to the early marketing.
Further and more recent real world data is also giving evidence that they do no offer their marketed effectiveness against serious illness and death.

And then there is consideration of the risks associated to the vaccines;
AusVaxSafety shows Pfizer vaccines have resulted in about 1% of participants jabs resulting in a requirement for medical attention.
Given Australia is currently at 63.8m doses, that equates to 638,000 visits to the docs due to vaccines in less than 2 years.
And I have evidence suggesting AusVaxSafety have manipulated that data to keep those stats lower than actual.
CDC recently released VSafe data (under court order and 2 lawsuits) that 7.7% required medical attention after vaccination.
 

Posts: 72

Date Joined: 26/11/12

 Mate you're a genius, write

Tue, 2022-10-18 18:17

 Mate you're a genius, write that sh!t up, publish it in Nature or Science, and grab yourself a sweet professorial appointment as an epidemiologist, double your salary, share your insights, and make the world a better place. (/s)

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Thanks for the example

Wed, 2022-10-19 00:52

Of what people post when they lack a rational argument and desperately seek some kind of one-upmanship.

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 What "öther"vested interest

Fri, 2022-10-14 07:22

 What "öther"vested interest have I got other than saving people's lives. And yes, you arent ëxpendible"when you are old!!

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"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk

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Date Joined: 27/05/11

.

Thu, 2022-10-13 20:33

 .

Moondog's picture

Posts: 103

Date Joined: 25/06/18

 Need to have people in this

Wed, 2022-10-12 21:08

 Need to have people in this world that don't agree with each other boys. Otherwise we will end up with a huge government and they will start dictating things like jab mandates, who can go fishing, building outer harbours and destroying environments all the while they claim to be worried about the environment. I've had my say and I'm doing what davewillow is doing and going fishing. 

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 Fuck I think I will log off

Thu, 2022-10-13 05:22

 Fuck I think I will log off again and tune right out.

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Date Joined: 22/01/12

Jab

Thu, 2022-10-13 05:55

 So phizer now says they didn't know if the vaccine was effective at stopping transmission prior to release, we were told in my workplace that is why we had to get it or lose our job.

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Anywhere anytime

Moondog's picture

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 Interesting one isn't it.

Thu, 2022-10-13 19:08

 Interesting one isn't it. The jab did fuck all and Pfizer knew it all along. 

Posts: 72

Date Joined: 26/11/12

This is such a bad,

Fri, 2022-10-14 19:08

This is such a bad, misinformed, completely wrong take. No one expected guaranteed sterilizing immunity, though it would be great. And if you think having good but imperfect protection is not worthwhile and doesn't make a massive difference, have I got a bridge to sell you!

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Pfizer has already sold all the bridges

Fri, 2022-10-14 19:56

Pfizer's media release back in November 2020 told us;
"Primary efficacy analysis demonstrates BNT162b2 to be 95% effective against COVID-19 beginning 28 days after the first dose"
And;
"Data demonstrate vaccine was well tolerated across all populations with over 43,000 participants enrolled; no serious safety concerns observed; the only Grade 3 adverse event greater than 2% in frequency was fatigue at 3.8% and headache at 2.0%"

We are now told that boosters are required every 3 months, it does not prevent infection or transmission and AusVaxSafety shows the first dose resulted in 22% reporting fatigue and 16% a headache (both of those are higher for the 2nd dose and for each future booster ... up to 42% and 33%).
 

Posts: 72

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It's painfuly obvious you

Sat, 2022-10-15 11:11

It's painfuly obvious you have no idea what you're on about dude.  Efficacy isn't a synonym for sterilizing immunity, lol.  And you've evidently forgotten all about variants emerging over time I guess, but until you actually want to understand and not just spout weird, cherry-picked, out of context conspiracy theory crap what is even the point.

There is a safe and effective vaccine that dramatically reduces your risk.

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quantify it

Sat, 2022-10-15 11:47

Can you please quantify what vaccine you are talking about when you say safe and effective vaccine?
By what measurement is it safe and/or effective?

I have been quantifying my posts to which you have not yet provided any evidence to the contrary ... that is painfully obvious.

Posts: 72

Date Joined: 26/11/12

Rofl   It's not possible to

Tue, 2022-10-18 18:23

Rofl   It's not possible to "quantify what vaccine" ...which is not a countable or continuous numerical scale. 

And you and I both know it's all the COVID-19 vaccines approved by the FDA and/or TGA/recommended by ATAGI

You're free to read the data packages yourself.

BlueKiaser's picture

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you made the claim

Wed, 2022-10-19 09:50

You are the one stating they are safe and effective so tell us why?

I have quantified why they are not effective, by using real world data, compared to what they marketed.
I have quantified why they are not safe, by using real world data, compared to what they marketed.
I have very little doubt that what the FDA/TGA/ATAGI were presented with was nothing like the real world effectiveness and safety data that we now have for these vaccines.

Given boosters are now recommended every 3 months, do you believe that counts as effective?
Is it still safe now the recommended doses for Pfizer's is about 6 doses in about 13 months (vs 2 doses marketed) making the risks x3.
So what is your line in the sand?
If boosters were required every month would that still be safe and effective? ... oh, that's right ... your position is "It's not possible to quantify ..."

Wouldn't it be great being a vaccine producer in front of the FDA and when asked how effective and safe the vaccine is ... you simply reply "It's not possible to quantify" ... and it gets approved ... provisionally of course.

In reality, it was a little more difficult than that, because let's not forget, Comirnaty's "continued approval depends on the evidence of longer term efficacy and safety from ongoing clinical trials and post-market assessment" ... but that's ok because they coughed up some more BS efficacy numbers that once again are way above the actual real world effectiveness that we now see.

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 Please make sure you line up

Sat, 2022-10-15 13:10

 Please make sure you line up every 1/4 and get your booster mate. Blokes like yourself keep the Pfizer shareholders happy and that's the most important thing here.

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Date Joined: 10/02/07

Young guy across the road, 40s

Thu, 2022-10-13 07:14

 In a real bad way,serious heart problems, brains lost it, after his second shot, cant function, can't  work, many reports of heart problems, he's going to get compensation from government if he lives.

____________________________________________________________________________

all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs

Moondog's picture

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 These stories are

Thu, 2022-10-13 19:05

 These stories are everywhere. I feel sorry for the poor healthy people that have been forced to go through this.

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pasted across from Fishin thread

Thu, 2022-10-13 07:23

 "LOL. 

Covid Vaccines dont work??? They sure do!

During the start of the pandemic case mortality was about 3%. For example March1 2020 7 day moving average world cases 1589, 7 day average deaths 59 (3.7%), by end of April 2020 7 day av. 85277 cases, 6231 deaths (7%). By December 2020 490 564 cases, 14474 deaths (2.9%). By now us Dr's have started to figure out how to manage patients and unless the systems overwhelmed by cases care was improving.

Then vaccinations started early 2021. Jump to the Delta wave end of August 2021 666 002 7 day av cases, 8603 av deaths (1.2%), to Omicron end January 22, 2 359 686 cases, 7746 deaths (0.3%). If we use the original Wuhan figures from March 1 there would have been 87 300 odd deaths on that day. In Australia on Jan 30 2022 we had 32340 cases and 80 deaths (0.2%), using Wuhan figures above 1196 deaths. 

My father had Covid at 84, fully vaxed and OK. I am just glad he was not one of the excess 1116 deaths that would have happened was it not for vaccinations. Yes from 80 families in tears to 1196 families. That is not a joke and we deal with the grief everyday, and I am sure glad I didnt have to deal with this extra load that many colleagues in the USA and UK had to go through early on in the pandemic, not just the treatment, but the aftermath.

Yes the original hope was to stop infections and rate of infections, but variants developed and caused variant escape. But it has not caused variant mortality escape and the vaccines still offer protection against hospitaliation and death. I am sure glad not one of my vaccinated patients has passed on, but 2 un or under vaccinated has. RIP."

 

And there is no proof that the drop is due to variants being less severe. Alpha and Delta have a higher case mortality than Wuhan, Omicron is less severe than Delta, but unvaccinated on par with Wuhan strain!!

____________________________________________________________________________

"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk

BlueKiaser's picture

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Date Joined: 22/04/15

more numbers

Thu, 2022-10-13 15:57

The Covid-19 variants have become less fatal for all vaccination status groups.
The Case Fatality Rate (CFR) was above 3% with the early Alpha variant to now being less than 0.5% (even for the unvaccinated) with Omicron.
Any attempt to show what lives the vaccines have saved needs to consider the variants.
I have done statistical analysis that showed periods of time when the CFR actually went up in line with vaccination rates in Australia (when looking at the various stages of Covid-19 variants). That is, I struggle to see any correlation in a reduction of deaths due to increased vaccination rates in Australia.
For example, August '22 we actually had our worst month for reported Covid-19 deaths. The only other time close to August was Jan-Feb'22 which was our peak vaccination period.
Certainly in the US and Australia, the majority of our Covid-19 deaths have occurred after the vaccine roll out.

It has been extremely difficult to get good transparent data from Health departments in Australia and around the world.
Early, nobody would listen to any conversations about the vaccines not stopping infections or transmissions.
Vaccinated infections were occassionally spoken of publicly and described as breakthrough cases.
But with time and more people being vaccinated they could not hide the huge numbers of breakthrough cases.
Eventually they had to drop the narrative of the vaccines offering protection against infection and then hold on to the narrative about their effectiveness against serious illness and death.
But again, with large percentages of vaccinated participants there has been more evidence showing the vaccines are nowhere near as effective against serious illness and death either.
So again, they changed the narrative to how the vaccine effectiveness wanes over time and introduced the need for a third shot booster.
And then another, and another, ...

If you need a booster every 3 months, then how confident can anybody be that these jabs will give you even 50% effective protection for even the majority of a year? Plus consideration for the risks of getting each jab with our own AusVaxSafety showing 15% of those getting each booster need to take at least one day off work/study/normal activities due to adverse reactions.

I recently collated up the last 6 weeks of reported data from NSW weekly surveillance reports which has a table showing Covid-19 Hospitalisations and ICUs for the different vaccination status. That data (which may have some double counting due to the weekly reports are for the past fortnight) shows that for a vaccination status of "No doses" there was 4 Hospitalised (out of a total of 1,910) and 2 ICUs (out of a total of 184).
So even though there is still about 15% of the NSW population with no doses, they are rarely having to go to hospital with Covid.
 

NORUN NOFUN's picture

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It all comes down to choice

Thu, 2022-10-13 08:23

It all comes down to choice now, with hindsight we see the pro's and we also see the con's - the vaccine may well have saved many lives but has also ruined many as well.

I got the vaccine through choice, for certain reasons. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, someone who blindly falls into line or a passionate advocate ramming my opinion down others throats.

For me personally I was forced to have every conceivable vaccine known to exist and pumped full of shit to be deployed from my time in the defence, many of my Australian & American friends have had their lives turned upside down through forced vaccinations and sadly lead a pretty shitty life and are completely forgotten.

At the end of the day I see what I see through my eyes and make decisions on what I want and what I do not want in my body, do I care about others opinions ? not so much !

If someone chooses to have the vaccine, well, good on them, if they don't, well, good on them too, it's called choice.

BlueKiaser's picture

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Date Joined: 22/04/15

Yes ... choice.

Thu, 2022-10-13 10:07

Discussions about Covid-19 vaccines have become more controversial because of the lack of choice.

Many people like myself, who people choose to label as anti-vaxxers, are far more vocal and passionate about being anti-mandate than anti-vax.
Anybody here who has been reading my posts should have seen that I do not tell people whether to get vaccinated or not.
I may question why they have or want to, but nowhere do I tell them what they should or should not do in terms of getting vaccines.

I am pro-choice and want people to have the right to making informed consentual decisions regarding their health and vaccines.
A vaccine's effectiveness and risk is very much related to the individual and their circumstances.
For example, if I was a Health worker, I would get a Hep B vaccine. But current me gives myself the choice to evaluate my very low risk to lead me to an informed consent choice to not get the Hep B vaccine.

My intent is to provide alternative thoughts and evidence that most people will not see in their normal mainstream media or usual official channels.
I am pleased to know people can choose to take it, leave it, or debate it as they wish.
And so far, I have appreciated fishwrecked permitting me to do so without being cancelled.

carnarvonite's picture

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One Wonders

Thu, 2022-10-13 13:43

 One wonders if you didn't have all your shots and boosters as a child would you be here sprouting anti vac now

BlueKiaser's picture

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Date Joined: 22/04/15

Seriously ... that is what you wonder

Thu, 2022-10-13 15:15

Can you give me an example of any disease and the risk if unvaccinated, that I could have died from, even in the last 50 years?
 

Meanwhile back in the real world, I have some sprouting to do;
In the latest weekly report from NSW where there was 0 unvaccinated cases that went to hospital (out of 208) or ICU (out of 23) in the last fortnight.

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Date Joined: 29/04/18

Wonder

Thu, 2022-10-13 16:07

 I wonder if you have anything better to do with your time than copy and paste shit off the internet,  go fishing mate cheer up life goes on 

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 Happy dayz 

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 poliotetanus

Thu, 2022-10-13 16:51

 polio

tetanus

Posts: 1047

Date Joined: 21/05/12

 poliotetanus

Thu, 2022-10-13 16:51

 polio

tetanus

Posts: 1047

Date Joined: 21/05/12

 poliotetanus

Thu, 2022-10-13 16:52

 polio

tetanus

BlueKiaser's picture

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What is the risk

Thu, 2022-10-13 17:05

And do you know what the risk is of contracting and dying from either of those two diseases, if unvaccinated in the past 50 years?

Jackfrost80's picture

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LOL. I wonder why that is....

Fri, 2022-10-14 10:54

LOL. I wonder why that is.... maybe both illnesses just packed their bags and left overnight?

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Ignorance is bliss

Fri, 2022-10-14 21:23

That comment indicates you have a very poor understanding of what Tetanus is and the effectiveness of the vaccines against it.

Tetanus is caused by a bacteria that is found all over the shop in Australia.
In Australia, the tetanus vaccines are recommended in numerous numbers from 6 weeks to 4 years (ie. 5) and then every 10 years due to waning protection provided by the vaccines.
That is, it is highly likely that the majority (or at least a significant amount) of the Australian population are not properly vaccinated for Tetanus.

There have also been studies that show unvaccinated people have antibodies against Tetanus because with age and exposure we naturally build immunity and resillience to Tetanus.

In the past 50 years, we see about 1 death per year, mostly in the 65+ age group with other comorbidities (some vaccinated, some not).
We average less than 10 notifications of tetanus per year.

If the public was vaccinated as recommended by our health departments, a person who reaches the age of 80 would have in excess of 10 vaccines for Tetanus.
That is, with (current) Australia's population, that equals a recommended 2 or 3 million doses a year.
Vaccine companies work on the principle that they accept 1 death per 1 million doses.
AusVaxSafety data suggests about 1 or 2% of vaccine participants will require medical attention after receiving a Tetanus vaccine. That is an estimated 20,000-60,000 visits to emergency or a doctor per year due to Tetanus vaccines (if we followed our recommendations from our Health departments).

These are the numbers you are not aware of and appear to not consider ... but some of us do and it is why we make an informed decision to not get some vaccines after doing some basic risk vs benefit analysis.

Oh, and next time you step on a rusty nail and go to the hospital and they give you a Tetanus shot (if you have not had one in the last 10 years), maybe ask them how long it takes for that vaccine to make effective antibodies ... because my understanding is a jab at that stage is too late and will most likely not help your present risk of getting Tetanus from your current accident.

Jackfrost80's picture

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How many kids do you see

Sat, 2022-10-15 08:33

How many kids do you see nowadays kicking around in leg braces from polio?

Do you think that we see such small nos of tetanus deaths due to widespread vaccinations? Subsequent shots are a tetanus booster aimed at reactivating dormant antibodies not creating them....

You're chucking up strawman arguements and trying to convince us that you can have a chicken without an egg.

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If catching wrasse is cool, consider me Miles Davis

sea-kem's picture

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Replying to this bloke is

Sat, 2022-10-15 09:05

Replying to this bloke is akin to the definition of insanity.

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BlueKiaser's picture

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And yet

Sat, 2022-10-15 11:49

And yet nobody has replied to my posts more than you.

sea-kem's picture

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 That's correct, I must be

Sat, 2022-10-15 12:16

 That's correct, I must be insane to keep replying to your waffle. 

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crasny1's picture

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replying to you Andie

Tue, 2022-10-25 07:05

 Thats why I cant be bothered.

LOL.

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BlueKiaser's picture

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No polio in Australia

Sat, 2022-10-15 10:52

The reason why you do not see kids in leg braces from polio is because Polio has been eradicated in Australia since about 2000.
Unlike Tetanus, Polio is an infectious disease (understood to have been around for over 3,000 years) mostly transmitted via faeces ... which is why it would easily spread during pandemics in areas with poverty or poor sanitation and sewerage, like 70+ years ago.

But we do still have kids in leg braces due to polio like illnesses such as AFP. About 1,000 children <15 years old have been diagnosed with this Polio like illness since 2000. Back in the 1950's they would have been diagnosed as having Polio.

Even though the cause of Tetanus is still prevalent, the Unvaccinated people in Australia are not dying in numbers due to Tetanus. It really is that simple to understand ... for some of us.

carnarvonite's picture

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Reason

Sun, 2022-10-16 10:19

 The reason why you don't see many of those who contacted polio as children , like myself, during the fifties is that we are all that are still alive are probably in wheel chairs and over 65 years old.

And the reason it was eradicated because the vaccine was effective and compulsory to all children

BlueKiaser's picture

Posts: 416

Date Joined: 22/04/15

Or

Sun, 2022-10-16 12:38

Have vaccines helped reduce the occurrence of Polio around the world since the 1950's ... yes.
Did they do this at zero cost ... no.

History and an understanding of Polio pandemics tells us that vaccines are not the only reason for Polio disappearing.
Polio has come and gone throughout history well before vaccines existed so giving all the credit to vaccines is being ignorant.
There is plenty of historical evidence showing that Polio has been around for thousands of years.
In the US they had a Polio outbreak in the 1840s but then nothing for about 50 years ... no vaccines back then.

Standards of living is by far more important in combatting Polio.
If you introduced a thousand infected wild polio people in to a modern day western country town with nobody vaccinated, polio would naturally be eradicated in short time through other non-vaccine related ways. Regardless, our immigration policies stop Polio from getting in to Australia, not vaccines.

Currently, (according to latest WHO data) there are about 4 countries who have had at least one case of Wild Polio in the last year, totalling just under 50 cases.
And about 20 countries who have had at least one case of Vaccine Derived Polio totalling just over 400 cases (this includes the US who had 1 case).

And I was not aware the vaccine was ever compulsory for all children ... when and where was that?

Australia currently has no reason to be vaccinating against Polio when it does not exist here, ie. there is zero benefit, yet still risks from adverse effects from the jab.
 

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This seems like a fundamental

Tue, 2022-10-18 20:49

This seems like a fundamental misunderstanding on so many levels it's hard to even know where to start.

First, polio epidemics got worse as standards of living improved, not better. 

If you introduced a thousand infected wild polio cases into a modern day western country town (country town??!) with nobody vaccinated, you'd have people end up with horrible outcomes that are entirely avoidable if the people are vaccinated. Also, immigration policies in Australia aren't focused on polio. It could be brought in by travelers (but thanks to vaccines there isn't much around in the world!) 

It's, like, mind-bogglingly short-sighted to make a statement like "there is zero benefit" to vaccination against vacinatable infectious diseases. There is an absolutely MASSIVE benefit, to both to individuals and society.  In the case of polio, it sure as heck isn't common to know people in iron lungs these days, which seems like a very worthwhile outcome. And the reason is the vaccine.