Found a couple cray pots...question

What are the legaliities of divers claiming discarded cray pots? 

Both were well stuck in a reef, small length of rope on top that had its ID floats removed. Both pots have no ID on them themselves and both were well overgrown with algae and bait box lids missing. 

 

 

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uncle's picture

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probably someones who thought they were stolen

Tue, 2014-11-18 17:09

take photos finders keepers I would imagine

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Paul H's picture

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interesting moral and

Tue, 2014-11-18 17:26

interesting moral and possibly legal dilemma.

 

Question 2, you find a boat (hull) washed up on the beach, it has no motor (thus no engine number) and no HIN, it shows signs of having been in the water for some time.  Do you keep it or report to relevant authorities???

Question 3. You find a wallet on the street, no one is around, its full of cash with no ID of any sort.  Do you keep it or report to relevant authorities???

 

If you keep it (in either of the above 3 scenarios) are you breaking the law and possibly face police action if discovered????

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 Take the money out the

Tue, 2014-11-18 17:32

 Take the money out the wallet, go buy a motor for the hull washed on the beach then go pick up your newly discovered cray pots. Just means your a lucky  muther fu$&er

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 That's not where I was

Tue, 2014-11-18 17:36

 

That's not where I was intending on going (not that I had much intention)

Joe you have no morals but I like the way you think.........

 

 

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 Legally, you have to make

Tue, 2014-11-18 17:55

 Legally, you have to make reasonable attempts to find an owner.  Easiest way is to hand them into police and then go back in three months and claim them.  Otherwise, place an ad in the paper (although this is problematic as anyone could claim them - dont publicize the location / decription and test their knowledge).

If you don't make a reasonable attempt, it's known as stealing by finding (and there is case law on it)

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Pretty well what I was

Tue, 2014-11-18 18:44

Pretty well what I was getting at Randall despite what most would think the truth is if it doesn't belong to you, you have no claim to it unless you make a decent attempt to locate the rightful owner.

Other scenario - say someone else had knocked off the cray pots and then dumped them upon seeing another boat possibly fisheries approach, they then end up getting lodged in the reef.  You would now possibly be in possesion of stolen goods (presumably).

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in that situation you're in

Tue, 2014-11-18 19:26

in that situation you're not 'receiving' stolen property because at the time you have no idea or suspicion that its stolen. but the first scenario still applies - reasonable attempt to find the owner.

 

Edited "not receiving"

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i would say those scenarios

Tue, 2014-11-18 19:22

i would say those scenarios are nothing like finding a cray pot in the ocean over grown with algae, but each to their own i guess, and good luck finding the owner to pots that all look the same hundreds of pots would be lost every year, some stolen, some smashed by the swell and some ropes cut by props etc, i guess if it was me i would think that if they have been there that long that they have started to become part of the reef, and the owner (presumably knowing that they are there) has made no attempt to get someone to dive on them to recover them, it would be finders keepers, thats my opinion anyway...

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We found 7 one year, no

Tue, 2014-11-18 19:36

We found 7 one year, no floats, no ID, no way to ID the owner.

over time, all bar two have 'vanished'

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 Can't you claim salvage?

Tue, 2014-11-18 20:16

 Can't you claim salvage?

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 I reckon its a question of

Tue, 2014-11-18 20:18

 I reckon its a question of morals. The owner may want to go pick them up one day. I have been there before. He could have cut the rope to do the righty by other boaters, only to go back to find them gone. But reality is he probably has to prove he owned them in the first place if he caught you putting them in your boat.

Thing is if you dont take them someone will. Maybe grab them and put a post on here to see if anyone has lost one, then they will be able to tell you exactly where they lost it. Remembering they cost $$$ to buy or replace so a small reward for the return to me is cheap.

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Interesting issue, moreso the

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:00

Interesting issue, moreso the stealing by finding debate. By that logic - everything I find in the ocean is stealing by finding? Anchors, lures, sinkers, rods - to name the most commonly found items by divers. How is one meant to find the rightful owner of said items? If I was to call the police station every time I found something they would presumably tell me to nick off with taking up their time. 

 

In the same token, what is stopping me or the next bloke stealing legit ID marked pots, cutting the rope and claiming as lost and then found?However in my case, the algal growth on the pot would show these pots had been long forgotten/lost. 

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 I'm with you on this

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:06

 I'm with you on this Notorious. I well aware of the stealing by finding rule of law, but there also must be a line of common sense. If you dumped those pots on a cop's bench he'd probably arrest you for the mess. Like you say forgotten and lost, claim salvage. 

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if he found them

Wed, 2014-11-19 20:26

if he found them out near the sisters they are probably mine from last season , he is welcome to them , if they have bbq grill plates in them for weights they are definitely mine

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Fisheries take on it

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:11

MMM interesting one , we were spoken to by fisheries awhile back after been checked at the ramp,

them asking us were we got our 6-8 occys from.

From our pots we replied ( we snorkle on them , like little jonny) , we said yeah we  ,  have 10 pots we

put in last year , plus we see the odd old pot ( usually old clay/ earthwear pipe) on its own , middle of knowhere,

covered in crap , that we have a look in too , oh shit they said , dont tell us that , we will have to book you for interferring with another mans ( or womans)

fishing gear!!, but there abandoned , lost pots we say, not so says fisherys.

So my reading off the rules is that, the crusty , seemly abandoned , no roped or floated cray pot is another mans fishing gear, so its a no go.

 

 

Mandurah Court rules on fishing gear interference

A Golden Bay man was ordered to pay a fine of $13,000 plus court costs of $146.90 and forfeit three lobster pots following his prosecution in Mandurah for a string of offences, including interference with fishing gear.

 

and this

 

FISH RESOURCES MANAGEMENT ACT 1994 - SECT 172 172 .         Removing fish from etc. fishing gear etc. without authority, offence

                A person must not —

            (a)         remove fish from any fishing or aquaculture gear; or

            (b)         interfere with any fishing or aquaculture gear,

                unless the person is the owner of the gear or is acting with the authority of the owner or has some other lawful excuse.

        Penalty:         In the case of an individual, $25 000 and imprisonment for 12 months.

                In the case of a body corporate, $50 000.

        [Section 172 amended by No. 2 of 2002 s. 18; No. 50 of 2003 s. 63(5); No. 43 of 2011 s. 55.]

 

 

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I think you will find this correct

Thu, 2014-11-20 09:55

We came across 2 abondoned crap pots and decided as the floats were missing to lift them. That ment we has 12 pots onboard. Luckily fisheries werent at the ramp.

Next time when officers were there asked them what would happen. The reply is exactly like the above. You arent allowed to remove ANYONE elses pots no matter what. I asked even if unsave and they said yes even then, but to report the pot to them and/or DEC to remove it.

I still think it is dumb but thats what happened and was said. If I didnt have pots onboard and came across an abandoned pot that was a potential hazard I would remove it, as there is no way to prove its not mine. So aslong as you havent got your own pots onboard and there is no other boats about I recon you could remove it but check for GINumber and identity tags etc.

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that is really crap and just

Sat, 2014-11-22 16:40

that is really crap and just Fisheries flexing their muscle making themselves look silly.

If it really is an imminent danger you are obliged to take some action whether it is remove it, move it or stay there til someone comes to help.

Just like at the islands (or Rotto I guess) NOBODY can order you to take your vessel to sea (return to the mainland) if you as skipper reasonably believe it unsafe to do so due to weather, breakdown, illness etc.

But you must be prepared to be able to demonstrate why.

Similarly with Fisheries boarding your vessel-if you reasonably deem it unsafe you can refuse but you must then proceed to an area where it is safe to do so and be prepared to answer the inevitable questions and suspicion.

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Interesting

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:15

I have to agree with Robertmc, the practicalities are that finding the owner is going to be like looking for the proverbial needle in the hay stack. Most (not all) people that loose a pot and know its position get a diver out to look for it as soon as possible. By your description it has been down there quite a while (covered with algae). You discovered it, found it it's yours if there is nothing on it to identify the owner. Just how are you going to start the search for the owner.

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Spot on

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:21

 I pulled a pot last year that had been chopped off 1foot below the surface but it was in the channel so I deemed it a hazard

Dont get me wrong - I hate pulling pots as I dive and don't want to scratch my glass

Took it back to the ramp and fisheries were there   In short they took the pot off me and told me to leave them out there

They could see it was a hazard so opted not to book me but all the same I was given a warning and won't be picking them up again

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Yours

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:30

How do you know they aren't yours. Have you lost any pots before?
You say there's no ID on them to say otherwise

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Im not sure of the need to

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:41

Im not sure of the need to turn this into some massive moral dilemma

If its chopped off, and unidentified and theres no other reason such as being spotted pulling too many pots-then just do it discreetly without a song and dance

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The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.

Everyone's just winging it.

 

hezzy's picture

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Robert mc I think is on the

Tue, 2014-11-18 21:55

Robert mc I think is on the money

if the pots are well and truly abandoned , with no id, on them how would you find the owner ?

if on th other hand their like mine with a gear id on them it might be possible to find the owner by his gear id ,

question if your out walking your dog along the beach , and you find a 2 dollar coin on the sand , do you keep it or take it the police ??

if you keep it is it theft by finding ? what do you reckon the police would say if you reported it to them ?/

question , is it the value of the item or how do you determine what is theft or what is just a lucky find ?

it gets too ridiculous if you legislate for every scenario , just use common sense ,
most people know an abandoned pot when they find it diving , same as anchor etc

hezzy

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quadfisher's picture

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Common sense , what dat

Tue, 2014-11-18 22:21

Hey I agree with you hezzy , my post was to just offer the side, that we all , have to understand

cause thats were the people whom govern us come from , the non common sense side.!

The problem with using common sense as your guide in our modern society, is its often at odds with the law makers

and enforcers.

Try arguing common sense , in front of a judge, when he has clear legislation written in front of him ( clear as mud)

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quad fisher , you know

Tue, 2014-11-18 22:43

quad fisher ,

you know sometimes the law is an ass , and a magistrate or judge will recognise an honest bloke who has no illegal or immoral intentions ,

years back I was pinged by fisheries on a technical wrongdoing ,which was just a waste of public time and money , I took it to court , used the opportunity to plead my case to the magistrate,
took the fisheries case to pieces and the magistrate agreed with me , saw the stupidity in their decision to proceed and I was vindicated

the senior fisho told me outside the court it was the first case he had lost in 8 years, advised me to buy alotto ticket ,

however I firmly believe not enough people challenge stupid or wrongfull actions , they give up too easily

if notorious has found pots that have been stuck for ages , covered in algae ,no ID on them , if he wishes to keep them or salvage them for repair , he needs to wack his rope and floats gear id on them , take them home and do the repair ,

I don't see that as being a big immoral issue he needs to struggle with to be honest , no more than finding an anchor , he just needs to comply with the law to move them from the ocean floor to home , so long as he is reasonably sure he cant find a prior owner , which seems to be the case from what he posted

same as the 2$ coin on the beach sand

hezzy

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some blokes set pots without rope on them though

Wed, 2014-11-19 06:41

so they could be someones???

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Cray fishing gear must be set

Wed, 2014-11-19 08:32

Cray fishing gear must be set with float ID on them, neither of the pots had any ID on them or rope near the surface

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That is certainly an offence

Wed, 2014-11-19 08:32

That is certainly an offence and basd luck if they disappear

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Everyone's just winging it.

 

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Has there ever been any

Wed, 2014-11-19 08:16

Has there ever been any suggestion of approaching Fisheries through fishwrecked and somehow having a contact at Fisheries who could answer questions like this in the forums, Not sure how it would work, but sure would be handy if subjects like this could be directed to someone at Fisheries who has the knowledge and authority to clarify what the ruling is?

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 I guarantee fisheries

Wed, 2014-11-19 08:31

 I guarantee fisheries officers read these forums, this site is WA's leading fishing forum. Fisheries have told me they read our club's facebook site and forums. In fact, we have fisheries officers in our club that are mad keen spearo's. When I was pulled up by fisheries on Wedge Island last year, I handed my licences over to the bloke. He says, "Aleks from the WA Undersea club hey?" 

However - the fisheries officers I have approached for answers to curly questions wont put anything in writting and will only give you a verbal. Which is fair enough I guess. 

This article proves it:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-14/authorities-trawl-social-media-sites-to-catch/5890896

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Paul H's picture

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its not only fisheries that

Wed, 2014-11-19 16:54

its not only fisheries that do internet searches.

(and something like catching a dolphin and posting it on face book is unlikely to be the stupidest thing someone has "put out there")

And you would be surprised at what info you can get on someone with a few clicks, having tight face book settings does nothing to prevent it either (it does make it a bit harder but not by much).

 

 

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If you ask ANY government

Wed, 2014-11-19 08:41

If you ask ANY government officer any sort of question like that which isnt spelled out in the legislation and the answer will always be no.

Better to just do it discreetly and not make a massive song and dance about it.

What is law, and what is morally right do not always align and I know which helps me sleep better at night

Say for example you find a ghost net in a remotish area loaded and still catching-do you pull it out so it doesnt kill anymore or report it and wait a month for someone to come and remove it?

Its unfortunately the way our leaders like us to fee these daysl-always a little fearful that we arent 100% by the book.

 

I doubt they read these forums as policy, but for sure there are officers who do due to their personal interests, which spills into the official arena.

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 Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...

 

 

The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.

Everyone's just winging it.

 

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For any fishing gear to be

Wed, 2014-11-19 09:58

For any fishing gear to be legal it must comply, IE ropes, pot size, owners ID on floats etc.

Would that not make the pot in question illegal? ie no floats with markings....

I can see how you could get in the poo real easy pulling up the pot.

But if you have no pots out and you "find the pot you lost last season" just take a rope and a set of marked floats out with you, reattach the rope to "your pot" and bring it up.

Noting that the only requirment to ID your cray pots is via float markings

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note-not all fishing gear.

Wed, 2014-11-19 13:14

note-not all fishing gear. But certainly craypots

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 Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...

 

 

The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.

Everyone's just winging it.

 

scotto's picture

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me...

Wed, 2014-11-19 10:07

I would take them, and if questioned by fisheries (and that's a big if), would say they were mine and I had just retrieved them as the ropes were cut the week before.

all the above bullshit of "its stealing", etc is the biggest far kin crock of shit ever. if anything, the original owner should be fined for littering/discarding rubbish at sea.... ever thought about that?

its unfortunate that in this day and age, we are all debating whether its right or wrong.

finders keepers Aleks. most on here would do the same. the rest are liars.

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 The original question asked

Wed, 2014-11-19 10:31

 The original question asked was, "what are the legalities...."

 

Well the answer is, it's illegal.  People may not agree, but that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal.

 

 

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i dont agree

Wed, 2014-11-19 10:51

I'm struggling to see how if he returns with an unmarked pot, how that is illegal.

I interpret it as not illegal, so long as he takes it to the cops, or even informs them he has found it. I would bet 99.9% of them would go unclaimed.

I personally would claim it as mine, the second I laid eyes on it.

I also know that there is A LOT of discarded pots where I dive.

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id reckon you would have no

Wed, 2014-11-19 10:37

id reckon you would have no probs if you put your rope & floats with gear id etc on them when diving , then pull them ,

agree scotto with the theft bit ,
if you took that view then you would be stuffed to pick up a cray float/rope on the beach or a bait lid red neck , fishing float etc pretty much anything that could be fishing gear , youd be potentialy done for either interferrign with gear or theft ,

no logic in any of that, pretty sure neither fisheries or police would be rushing to prosecute you , same as the 2$coin anywhere

hezzy

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Notorious's picture

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FISH RESOURCES MANAGEMENT ACT

Wed, 2014-11-19 11:59

FISH RESOURCES MANAGEMENT ACT 1994 - SECT 172 

172 .         Removing fish from etc. fishing gear etc. without authority, offence

                A person must not —

            (a)         remove fish from any fishing or aquaculture gear; or

            (b)         interfere with any fishing or aquaculture gear,

                unless the person is the owner of the gear or is acting with the authority of the owner or has some other lawful excuse.

 

My interpretation of the act above applies to commercial fishing gear or recreational gear that is ID marked, therefore lawfully owned.

Equipment that is long forgotten, not ID marked, is lost and arguably not owned by anyone anymore I would argue falls under the scope of "some other lawful excuse". 

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 Hypothetically, if it was me

Wed, 2014-11-19 12:43

 Hypothetically, if it was me (and won't because I don't dive), I would be bringing to the surface, intending to hand it into police as lost property.  If I am stopped by fisheries on the way I would be honest and say, found it.  It's unmarked, it's not baited, it was empty.  My intention is to hand it in and later claim it.  If fisheries then want to charge you for interferring with some one else's gear I reckon you can argue that that is not the parliament's intention of the fisheries legislation.  That legislation is intended to stop people raiding other people's catch.  It's not intended to prevent people exercising a common law right to claim lost property.

That way your actions could not be criticized either morally or criminally.

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 Your reasoning sounds good

Wed, 2014-11-19 14:44

 Your reasoning sounds good to me

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 I would just take it, who

Wed, 2014-11-19 17:12

 I would just take it, who would know that you did take it. The owners wouldn't because they think it's gone anyway

but I would be very guilty and would probably give it into the police anyway.

it doesn't really answer your question but it's what I think would happen to me

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nailed it

Wed, 2014-11-19 17:27

Lachie. 

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 I am a potter, if I lose my

Wed, 2014-11-19 20:29

 I am a potter, if I lose my pots be it from big seas, props or just thieving pricks, then that's the risk I take and take willingly. It's called risk reward. If you come across it diving and it does not have my id attached to it then consider it yours, I promise I won't press charges.

This is the era we live in, one of political correctness, duty of care, litigation.... Well it can all go and get f..ked and let's just use common f..kin sense.

i feel better now

 

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 The problem with common

Wed, 2014-11-19 20:36

 The problem with common sense is that it's not that common....

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Right on the money

Wed, 2014-11-19 20:45

You are right on the money Akers67, unfortunately the common sense part of our thinking process is being taken from us by the good polies who don't want to hear of such a thing.

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 It's everywhere, we can't

Wed, 2014-11-19 20:51

 It's everywhere, we can't avoid it unfortunately and I dread to think what our society is going to be like in the years to come, probably won't be able to fart without obtaining the necessary approvals!!

 

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 Personally - take it.

Wed, 2014-11-19 22:26

 

Personally - take it. Legally; take it or leave it (pun intended). There is nothing to protect a person claiming a (found) pot as their own given it does not have an ID on it, ie; unless the floats are attached. However, the law states the pot should have an id tag via float id. That there is no requirement to have the pot id marked would indicate, in Court, that lost pots are claimable - for only can a pot with floats (that are id'd) be deemed another persons fishing equipment.

However, a pot on its own is not a legal fishing impliment by definition, so therefore you could be hit with illegal fishing.

The id is not there just so you can say the pot is yours, but to ensure you only have the number of pots you are allowed under license. Hence the black and white "If it's not yours, leave it alone".

Anchors in the reef and coins on the beach are different, there are no legalities as to their use or implications to posession.

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take posession

Wed, 2014-11-19 23:11

posession is 9/10s of the law. Theres no one to say there not yours.

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messiah , imco notorious

Thu, 2014-11-20 06:04

messiah ,

imco notorious would have no issues if he dived on the unmarked ,abandoned pots , that have no gear id or floats & rope with gear id on them attached ,
placed his own licenced , gear id , floats and ropes onto those pots, then returned to his boat and pulled them ,

once on his boat if he was stoped they would be deemed to be legal fishing equipment ,
in his possession , he should be fine to remove them to wherever to repair or reuse , so long as they comply with all legal western rock lobster regulations

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Found a craypot underwater

Thu, 2014-11-20 11:12

Found a craypot underwater once in reasonable nick (but covered with algae). Ended up recovering it and pulled it onto deck. Fisheries were in the area and came over to look and asked about it. Once they knew it was recovered off the bottom, rope missing and had no gear ID they didn't seem to have any issues with us keeping it.

Wouldn't be so sure that the police would really want a rotting algae stinking craypot sitting around their station though.

One good reason to mark your pots with your gear idea (same with anchors). If you haven't marked the pot itself, then not sure how you would ever have an expectation of getting it back.

Not sure i'll ever bother recovering another pot though.

Posts: 6454

Date Joined: 08/08/11

 Hey if you take the pot into

Thu, 2014-11-20 12:49

 Hey if you take the pot into the police station and they turn you away, you've made a reasonable attempt to find an owner 

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Fish! HARD!

Posts: 95

Date Joined: 19/05/13

Hezzy, granted - there are

Thu, 2014-11-20 13:17

Hezzy, granted - there are ways and means, I agree. I didn't say you couldn't 'work around' the issue if you want to take the risk.

But taking your own floats and rope implies you intend on finding pots and claiming them. Suppose there's nothing illegal about that - however, be clear on intent;

 

Pots must be pulled by the licenceholder;

pull in relation to a rock lobster pot, means to bring the pot from the seabed to the surface of the sea;

rock lobster pot means any fishing gear, other than a hand held instrument, that is capable of being used to fish for rock lobster.

 
 

If Mr Fisheries stopped me with floats and rope - before finding pots, how do I convince them I wasn't out to go and cut someones floats off and reclaim those pots as my own? And if I already had my own pots in the water - and I get checked with extra floats and rope it could imply I had been fishing with additional pots, but lost them.


You also run the risk of there being an ID tag under the algae - that you couldn't see underwater, or that your rope and floats do not have as much algae on them as your new found pot..

 

Fisheries don't just wander up to the boat to see what you're doing. If they are at your boat, they know exactly what you've been doing..

 

In the end, we all make our own decisions. Legalities aside, I hold the opinion the guy just might want to come back and dive for his snagged pot..

hezzy's picture

Posts: 1519

Date Joined: 27/11/09

messiah i always work on

Thu, 2014-11-20 14:35

messiah
you either work in fisheries or law , lol

i always work on the theory that fisheries are watching you ,or will stop you , quite often its true for us down south where we fish

as for taking your own gear id on floats with new ropes, out in the boat with you ? well you might be surprised to know it probably isnt that uncommon , if you have pots in the water ,

after a few weeks pot ropes get full of growth , it makes em hard to pull , so i often will change a set over , new for old, as it makes pulling them easier without the slippery growth on them ,

so it certainly doesnt mean your up to no good to be found with such onboard ,
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[Pots must be pulled by the licenceholder;

pull in relation to a rock lobster pot, means to bring the pot from the seabed to the surface of the sea;]

yeh another one open to question ,
if fisheres are willing to give say a 7 or 77 year old a licence etc , they then must accept the possibility that licence holder will not be able to ''pull ''that pot by themselves , and as that question is not asked by them again it would depend on the day what would happen

ime id defy any officer to charge a father /son , or son /father etc with an offence if they had help to ''pull '' pot , be a no win situation to choose to prosecute imho
and why would they

at the end of the day , people will do what they want , as we all do things differently
as i learned years ago , you only need to have agood clean record , be prepared to back your claim with a logical , legal , counter and on any given day let a magistrate /judge decide ,

hezzy

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OFW 11

evil flourishes when good men do nothing

 

Hutch's picture

Posts: 2221

Date Joined: 21/04/13

 With the pots must be pulled

Thu, 2014-11-20 15:02

 With the pots must be pulled by a license holder doesn't it mean that the license holder must be on board for their pots to be pulled, I don't think the exact person has to be the one to pull the pots, just present on board.

Posts: 6454

Date Joined: 08/08/11

 I raised this question a few

Sat, 2014-11-22 13:25

 I raised this question a few years ago with fisheries about the 1 pink snapper per angler (eastern gulf shark bay at the time), and what constitutes "an angler". I gave the example of my five year old son whose distraction levels are high and his interest levels low.  If he fishes for short space of time out on the boat does he constitute an angler?  I was told if he is actively involved in fishing he is is an angler.  He said that they don't consider 5 yr olds sitting in a car in the carpark anglers when mum and dad are picking abalone off the reef within the quota for the child's bag limit.

So my interpretation on that is if I am driving my boat and putting it alongside my licensed pots and my unlicended mate pulls them, I am actively involved.

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Fish! HARD!

Posts: 95

Date Joined: 19/05/13

Hezzy, now law as such - but

Sat, 2014-11-22 13:11

Hezzy, now law as such - but contract management/contract law...You raise valid points and it's great to see a thread with actual discussion, and to go for a while without turning to shit and being closed..

Each situation is open to discretion and common sense by the charging officer - no different to being pulled over speeding. You can act accordingly and hope to get away with a warning, or shoot ur mouth off and get the book. All depends on who pulls up next to your boat and how they want to interpret the law.

Cheers